The Vital Role of Woods in Human Civilization with John Perlin

Episode Overview

Episode Topic

In this episode of Timber Talks, we get into Civilization and Historical Deforestation with John Perlin, an esteemed author, lecturer, and consultant in solar energy and forest preservation. John explores the pivotal role wood has played throughout human history, highlighting how deforestation has influenced the rise and fall of civilizations. From the use of wood for fire and tools to its role in building ships and wagons, wood has been a fundamental resource shaping human progress. John’s insights shed light on the interconnectedness of forest preservation and the sustainable future of our planet, emphasizing the critical need for responsible forest management.

Lessons You’ll Learn

Listeners will gain a profound understanding of how they have shaped the world we live in today. John Perlin discusses key historical advancements in forestry, demonstrating how the exploitation of wood resources has had long-lasting impacts on civilizations. You’ll learn about the essential role of old-growth forests in carbon sequestration, the influence of deforestation on climate change, and the importance of sustainable practices to preserve our natural resources. This episode also highlights modern technological advancements that can revolutionize forest preservation and management, offering a hopeful perspective on how we can mitigate the effects of historical deforestation.

About Our Guest

John Perlin is a renowned author, lecturer, and consultant specializing in solar energy and forest preservation. John has dedicated his career to exploring the critical role of wood in human history. His acclaimed book, “A Forest Journey: The Role of Wood and the Fate of Civilization,” is a testament to his extensive research and expertise. John’s work emphasizes the interconnectedness of forest preservation and sustainable energy solutions, providing valuable insights into how we can address the environmental challenges of our time. His passion for the subject makes him a compelling and informative guest on Timber Talks.

Topics Covered

The episode with John Perlin focuses on the historical use of wood and its significance in the development of human civilization. He explores the impact of deforestation on climate change, emphasizing the role of forests in carbon sequestration and precipitation. The conversation also touches on the challenges of urban development and its effects on forest ecosystems. Additionally, John highlights the importance of modern technological advancements in forest management and preservation. This episode provides a comprehensive overview of how historical deforestation has shaped our world and what we can do to ensure a sustainable future.

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About the Guest: John Perlin – Explores Civilization and Historical Deforestation

Episode Transcript

Mindy Mcintosh: Welcome to another episode of Timber Talks, the podcast, where we dive deep into the world of forestry and the ways it intersects with our lives and our future. I’m your host, Mindy, and today we have an incredibly insightful episode for you. Joining us is John Perlin, an esteemed author, lecturer, and consultant in solar energy and forest preservation. John has a profound understanding of the historical and contemporary roles of wood in civilization, as explored in his acclaimed book, A Forest Journey The Role of Wood and the Fate of Civilization. Welcome to the show, John.

John Perlin: Thank you.

Mindy Mcintosh: John, in your book A Forestry Journey, outlines the pivotal role wood has played throughout human history. Could you share some key historical advancements in forestry and how they’ve shaped modern practices?

John Perlin: Well, I would say, I would like to show how wood shaped civilization, if that’s okay with you.

Mindy Mcintosh: That’s perfectly fine, John.

John Perlin: Well, beginning about a million years ago, our ancestors learned how to use wood for fire. And that totally, separated us from all other animals because we were able to reshape the earth, to our liking. which includes, first of all, making a high protein, cooking, and more importantly, to go to leave Africa, to be able to, create a warmth in our domiciles, because it would have been impossible to settle in the northern hemisphere’s, hemisphere, without fire. And also, learning how to shape our tools, with, fire. Because fire is the only way we can extract metals. And all civilizations are marked by being metal ages. And they should be really marked as wood ages, because it was the fuel that permitted, the extraction of, metals, from, Earth, because % of all, metal comes from ore. And so all the metal ages you take the Copper Age, the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, which we’re in right now. it would have been impossible, without, wood. And then for, transport, for example, the only ways we, transported goods on land, it was by, wagons. Right. And, wagons, are built with wood. In fact, the American Indians, called the pioneering, wagons as wood on wheels.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay. I’ve lost. I’ve lost you here, John. For some reason, I don’t know. There we are, there we are. Okay. Just kind of went out. So, about the wagon wheels. That’s where we left off. I’m sorry.

John Perlin: well, I was saying that, um. All the wagons, and also all their wheels were built of wood. And so when the Indians saw the covered wagons going westward, they called the wha. The o the conestogas. As wood on wheels. Hu. And then there would have been no like. we would, we would have never had reached the New World without wood because wood provided the material for, shipping. In fact, all the means of bringing, bringing goods to one place to another was dependent on wood because either the wagons were made of wood or the ships were made of wood. And it was only until the s that with the Civil War, when the two ironclads went against each other, that, people, used wood as the sole means of building a ship. Hu. So all through civilizations which are dependent on globalization, which are dependent on trade, are dependent on, shipping. And all the ships were made of wood. And so I didn’t understand when I began the book why nobody saw that wood was basically the foundation for all of human activity.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay. Okay, well, they also say that, our brains just grew by leaps and bounds when we started eating protein. So having the would to to cook protein, you know, helped us evolve to to who we are today.

John Perlin: Precisely. And it was only through a wood fires learning that okay. The evolution as such that you’ve heard of the great apes. Hu. And the great apes are orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees and us. Hu. And all of these great apes are the only animals that build in wood. Hu. In fact chimpanzees make tools out of wood. But the only, what only differentiates humans from, the other great apes is the capability of making fire. Hmm. And that then that has led to everything that we call civilized. In fact, when, you know. When you turn on the ignition on a car, the word ignition comes from ignition, which means fire.

Mindy Mcintosh: So without, without wood, without fire, we wouldn’t have automobiles.

John Perlin: Well without, without, without we don’t have civilization. And not only we don’t have civilization, we don’t have humans. Right? Right? Because as you pointed out, it was the protein that allowed for the expansion of the human brain, which differentiates us from all other animals.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right. Plus, it allowed us to hunt to to make spears and.

John Perlin: Well, yeah, I mean, you you will, you know, one one of the things I discovered was, the Stone age is really the Wood Age. Because, the stone implements would have been useless without wooden handles or wooden shafts. Right. But it’s only the fact that would deteriorate that we have, basically, as a reminder of that time period. the stone implements.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right.

John Perlin: We find that. I mean, try, try to try to use a knife without a wood handle, right?

Mindy Mcintosh: We find arrowheads, but not the shaft, Exactly.

John Perlin: Or try. Yeah. Try to shoot a arrow without the shaft.

Speaker Right? Right.

Mindy Mcintosh: Or shoot a shoot the arrow without a bow, you know.

John Perlin: Exactly. So, I didn’t comprehend why nobody saw this. That wood is the basis of civilization or a more, generally is the basis of humans. And so I decided to write a book about it this year. And I tried to get all the actors during the various time periods, what they had to say about the importance of wood. And I discovered that the literature was immense, that as one English writer in the s said, better to be without gold than wood.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right. And it kind.

Mindy Mcintosh: Of makes you wonder in the in the near future. I have done a couple of projects with NASA and, you know, if we’re gonna colonize Mars, we’re gonna have to build on a lot of our building materials would just be too heavy. But seeds will travel, and, you know, you can you could grow your construction materials there on the planet that you want to colonize, which would be wood. So, just kind of, you know, what we could possibly see in the future from your research? in your work, you emphasize the interconnectedness of forest preservation and solar energy. How have advancements in solar energy technology influenced forced conservation efforts?

John Perlin: Well, it’s actually the converse. It was the, um. Denuding of the local of the local forests that influenced people to go to solar. And what happened was, solar was the like the main way to cook and heat. And once we were running out of wood, in long time ago, like, years ago, people, looked at, where the sun is during the year. You know, people don’t realize that the sun changes the position every day vis a vis the Earth. And they discovered that in winter time, the sun is low in the sky, and in summertime it’s high in the sky. So what they did, they built accordingly to, have, like, long roofs with eaves, to keep the sun out during the, hotter times and would allow the sun to rush in, to heat the house during a winter. So they built accordingly because of the wood, shortages, actually, because of deforestation. and, this is actually how I got into writing the book was I’ve written several solar books and, um. The saw history begins with deforestation.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: And so I ask myself if wood was the primary fuel for civilizations, then it must have played a forest, must have played a major part of the development of civilization.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right? Right.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, I know in, in history, you know, there have actually been countries that like, Scotland they’re in. Well, not their entire. But in Scotland, they harvested all their trees to build warships. And then they realized if they went to war again, they wouldn’t have any resources to build more ships. So they they planted trees, the estate owners would plant trees. And then that became areas where you could, pay to hunt and that type of thing. But, you know, countries have have seen the wrong and, and some habits and have tried to correct it because of the value of the trees and how it made them susceptible. If they didn’t have trees to, to produce certain products like warships.

Mindy Mcintosh: So, um.

John Perlin: Actually, the main, um. Oh, you might say reaction to, deforestation was to go to other places to DeForest.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: In fact, that’s why America was so valuable to the British because it provided them, with large, masting timber, to, build their great warships and be the rulers of the sea.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right. Because they had essentially kind of theoretically virgin forest that, you know, they didn’t have to wait for the trees to grow, to be able to harvest, to meet their needs.

John Perlin: Well, I think we should get rid of the word harvest because trees are not a crop.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay.

Mindy Mcintosh: All right.

Mindy Mcintosh: deforestation.

John Perlin: That’s that’s that’s a misnomer, spread by the timber industry. harvesting, to pretend that trees are a crop to be cut down. we should look at the trees as basically today as. And I was reading this yesterday is the only means of removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere right now.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay. All right.

John Perlin: So instead of looking at trees as a crop, in the end of my book, I show how trees have become even more valuable to civilization as, protectors.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, we’re learning more like how how plants communicate, how they protect each other, how they warn, how they communicate with insects to come and lay eggs and caterpillars. And so we’re learning more and more about our natural, natural world. And, you know, we there are such things in North America, tree cities and, you know, cities, big cities, small cities are jumping on this bandwagon to reduce the heat island that has been created in big cities from removal of trees. So we’re kind of going back trying to fix the problem in our urban development. can you give us an example of how modern technology is being used to preserve forest and manage resources more efficiently?

John Perlin: Well, I don’t think, any, there isn’t like. Oh, um. Oh, um. What I think is the revolution is the science of what trees do. for example, it was only in that we realized that old growth, sequestered more carbon than, say, growing trees like, crops.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: And it was only in the last ten years that we’ve discovered that not only do trees create rain, but they also serve as a, a means of relaying, rain to, distant areas. because until about, , the idea was that the evaporation in the oceans was the only way you provide a rainfall. Hu. And the new science shows that actually trees, for example, the Congo Basin provides % of the water for the Nile. Hu. And so we’re coming to all these and also in human health, it’s generally agreed that the destruction of the, the interface, you might say, of humans with the forest was what brought the coronavirus to, Wuhan, for example. so, we’re discovering what’s called one health, where the health of animals, health of the forest, results in the health of humanity.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, like in Japan, where we in the United States have gym memberships, they in Japan have forced memberships because it was found, walking through the forest, you have bacteria from the trees that fall on humans and it helps build a stronger immune system. So you can use your membership to, to go to the forest and walk around to reduce stress, to improve your immune system, to, you know, do all these things that, you know, we were doing thousands of years ago and we didn’t realize that, you know, we really needed it. So I think there’s I agree with you. There’s, you know, science is learning more and more and more about our interconnectedness. Humans connected to animals, connected to the environment, connected to forests, and trying to correct some of the mistakes we’ve made in the past, by removing trees for numerous reasons. urban development.

John Perlin: Urban development is probably the, one of the main causes of, deforestation. Hu. it changes the whole flow of, both the rain cycle and the, currents or currents.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu. Right.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, you know, we’ve at least in North America, we have this concept that everybody should have a house and, and etc. and that’s great in a perfect world. But, you know, there is a cost, you know, by besides the dollar cost, there is a cost when you, pursue that, that everybody has a right to a house on a quarter acre or, or whatever. we have the same problem in agriculture. you know, you have a subdivision comes in. It causes a lot of damage that farmers have to deal with. So, you know, it’s kind of an all around problem that I don’t think there’s any real clear solutions until we all kind of get on the same page, so to speak. Looking ahead, what do you see as the most promising technological advancements that could revolutionize forest preservation and management?

John Perlin: just basically keeping people out of the forest.

Mindy Mcintosh: So you wouldn’t agree with, like having parks and stuff like that, you think?

John Perlin: Parks. Parks? yes. if they’re regulated because my Canadian. um. My my, my. You know, my the people I work with in Canada have told me that most of the fires in the forests have been caused by ATV vehicles. Hu. And for example, the big fires in California were all caused by utilities, cutting back on, safety. Hu. And what the utilities have done is they’re trying to get rid of the forests, rather than upgrade their equipment. So there’s been, there’s been I wouldn’t say there’s been progress has not been linear. because the problem is each person has their special interest.

John Perlin: And so we have to somehow establish a societal like a good. Got everybody perhaps, starts to follow. A good example is we know that the coronavirus, for example, evolved in, oh, Southeast Asia. We know that. And instead of putting off limits to people’s, like interaction with the forest, China is developing this area. And in the process, you know, causing more possibilities of pandemics. Because each person or each government has their special interest and nobody thinks of the earth as a whole.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: I mean, that that there’s a lot of problem with that and a lot of different, different areas where we just, you know, I. I work hard and I want a house and I don’t care what it costs, I don’t. I don’t care what it costs. You know, people down the road, I, I don’t care how it affects the farmer in my community. I just want a house in the story.

Mindy Mcintosh:

John Perlin: And that all began what’s interesting about, my discoveries in the book that began thousands of years ago in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which was written, something like or years ago, where they first they built the first road into the forest and they, basically, cut down the trees to build the great civilization.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, I don’t think people thought about, you know, the long term effects of that and made it more convenient to cut the trees down to create the road, you know, so you could get to town. But in modern time, I think we’re, as a species, are very selfish. you know, we don’t really care. North America doesn’t care what what we do, how it’s going to affect another country. everybody thinks they have their own right to do whatever to achieve whatever goal. So I, you know, as you said, we don’t have this global perspective as to what I do affects people I don’t even know across the ocean. and, you know, is there a better way of doing it?

John Perlin: And actually that that’s that’s you might say that’s the human tragedy, because in the end, the end of the forest will be our end, too.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

John Perlin: Because like, I like, I say, at the moment and it’s not going to change in a long time. The only way of removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is, first of all, realizing we have a problem, which scientists are agreed. But, special interests aren’t. But the only way, to remove the carbon is we don’t have any technical means of doing it. we only have two choices. One, not burning fossil fuels and two, maintaining forests just for humanity’s survival.

Mindy Mcintosh: And I think there’s a lot of greenwashing and a lot of industries, that items have been created to replace gasoline powered engines. And, you know, if you if you do a little research, you can see that that’s not necessarily the case, that, you know, on the surface, yes. But when you look at it, the production, it it actually costs more as far as our resources, versus the old way we’re doing it now.

John Perlin: Oh, actually, actually, I’m glad you brought this up because what, what it shows what we’ve learned, scientifically, is that, fossil fuels, they’re, you might say, oh, transformation from oil. Is a very, extractive and very inefficient process. We lose about I think it’s % of the energy. while, if we use other means, like solar. It’s, um. Because. Because there’s no transport. For example, a solar panel just sits there and intercepts, the energy of the sun. it’s much more efficient in producing the same quality electricity because all electrons are created equal. But there’s such a. Oh, you might say a, self-interest in maintaining the status quo.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: And that could be our tragedy as a species. Because as I show. Because as I show in a forest journey, that civilization moved westward as we cut down the trees and everybody thinking that, oh, there’s another, um. Forest. To cut down.

Mindy Mcintosh: right.

John Perlin: And and that’s becoming less and less, a reality.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right. I mean, eventually we’re going to to run out of trees. Um. You know, we can replant them, but it takes time. Um.

John Perlin: That’s why restoration is so much more valuable is because it just. You just hit the nail on the head is that it takes time. In fact, it takes years for a tree to become a net. oh. Um. Oh, um. Carbon sink.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: And if we have year old forest and we cut it down and then say, oh, we’re going to replant, well, there’s years of carbon like, you know, being, you know, sent into the atmosphere.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: well, I mean, there’s, there’s many environmental mistakes we’ve made.

John Perlin: well, and hopefully, hopefully that’s one of the, oh, you might say values of my book is I have an entire, like, epilogue about all the science on why trees are more important today than they were when we used the wood as fuel or the wood as a building material. It’s to be our savior.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

John Perlin: Our existential like existence rests on the forest.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right. I mean.

Mindy Mcintosh: We I think.

Mindy Mcintosh: We as a global species, just need to change our attitudes about especially natural resources and our our rights. you know it. You know, we’ve we’ve taken liberty of having, created this problem, and we need to fix the problem if the tipping point hasn’t already gone over. Um. It’s and you know, to do that, we’re going to have to have a change of attitude and we’re going to have to reflect on what what our rights really are as a species. what can we live with and what can we live without comfortably? so, you know, but that that’s going to take time, just like it’s going to take time to, to raise trees. It’s going to take time for people to admit there’s a problem and then admit they’re part of the problem and then change.

John Perlin: So but I hope my book, might, like, oh, put a fire on some people’s minds, right. To see that indeed. All these places which we don’t believe could ever, like, have nurtured trees or once great forests and that this can be our fate too, right?

Mindy Mcintosh: We have like Easter Island. You know, that Easter Island was covered in trees, and they removed the trees to move the statues, and then, they they ate coconuts and different stuff, but they also had rats that a coconut. It was just an environmental disaster. But it started with the removal of the trees, to move the statues. So we have examples out, you know, in history that we can see what happens when the trees are gone.

John Perlin: Well, actually, we have, we have, examples right at home where the whole eastern United States used to be the, forest, the world, I mean, trees, in the East Coast, which rival the great trees in California. Hu. So it’s not like Easter Island. It’s, say, upstate New York.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right. It’s right at our back door, so to speak. But, you know, the this is not a new concept, I guess, is what I’m trying to get at. We have numerous examples of what happens when we remove the trees, is just trying to get people to understand and come up with a plan to, to start planting and, and realizing that we’re going to have to come up with some other materials for building and etc. instead of taking the trees down.

John Perlin: Exactly And that’s what I hope my book, helps, accomplish.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: But old habits die hard sometimes. So, how do you envision the role of wood and forest evolving in the context of global environmental change challenges?

John Perlin: could you explain a little bit? Um.

Mindy Mcintosh: Do you do you see wood and forests becoming, an important issue when we’re talking on global environmental challenges?

John Perlin: It’s the only issue.

Mindy Mcintosh: The only issue, okay.

John Perlin: Because the reason is, as I mentioned earlier, is trees, determine in large part the precipitation. Hu. And in a thirsty world that’s very important.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right.

John Perlin: And remember that, a good portion of the world depends on hydropower.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: And you have no hydropower if you have no precipitation.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

John Perlin: And not to mention global warming, the which you know, I don’t know if you’ve seen the maps, but in Africa they’ve been experiencing like heat all the way up to degrees, which humans can’t, like, live with. Right. you know, and then there’s the, air quality. Hu. that, global warming creates, longer lived viruses.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: Then there’s the epidemic, which, I think everybody agrees except for, say, people in Congress, that it was caused by, environmental disaster in Southeast Asia.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: I mean, I could go on and on, you know, tree because trees basically, through photosynthesis created the atmosphere that allowed. Large animals such as us. To evolve. Because trees. Um. And I go into this. Actually, I fossil hunted and found the first true tree, which was, dated to about million years ago, which began, the carbon take down and the oxygen, like, addition to our atmosphere, which invited, animals from the sea that could breathe, to make land.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay. Do you is there is the UN doing research on this? I know they have a global initiative. Um. Do you know if the UN is as has any goals for countries to try to achieve? I know Europe is is really into the UN initiative, the ESG, but I didn’t know if you were aware of any anything going on with the UN.

John Perlin: Well, there’s a UN agency called the International Forest Organization. I believe they are working on this. but but the problem is, is forestry, for the most part, has been dominated by people who cut down the trees.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: Rather than people who are, focused on restoring the trees. Right. Because for example, I was up in Northern California and you should have seen the lumber yards just full of, full of big, big trunks.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, I do know some individuals I’ve talked to some arborist and stuff that they one gentleman has a program that arborists can join. So for every tree they take down this organization plants two end.

John Perlin: Yeah But see there’s the problem. There’s the problem. You hit the nail on the head once again. A tree is not like a a new car.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: It takes time. Time. And we don’t have time.

John Perlin: So substituting this whole idea of for actually, I, the first sponsor for my project was, uh, you know, like timber industry. but the more I, like, got involved with them, the more I saw that they were, a greenwashing and b, they were not, trying to resolve the problem because we treat this is the whole problem is. And I go into this in my book is the anthropomorphizing of trees. We think that a young tree is young and vigorous and takes all the carbon and old tree. Old growth is like a person in a rest home, unable to really, you know, do much of anything while it’s been proven over the last years that it’s the old growth that actually, not only hold in the carbon, but also take in more carbon than the younger trees.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, this this gentleman I’m talking about, it’s it’s for arborist to remove dead trees. so you know it. It’s not a perfect solution by any stretch of the imagination, but because.

John Perlin: We don’t have the time, I mean, that’s the whole the whole problem. I was really, was about, three days ago where they were talking about, you know, the ideas of having, big machines, you know, scoop up the carbon. But they said there’s nothing available. There’s no technology like that available. And the only means right now of taking in CO on the planet are trees. So if you cut down the scooper of carbon and plant this little bitty tree. You know, you wait. And who knows if, years pass and the carbon gets as it’s happening, the Earth gets hotter and hotter. That little tree can’t even survive.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: Well, I guess my response to that would be that, you know, I’m just talking to different arborists and stuff seems to be a little change. We’re we’re just not, you know, you call an arborist. And my dad had four water maples taught. And and water maples aren’t the best. There are softwood tree. They’ve been there for over years on the farm. But he had them topped. And unfortunately, they moved on to the forest above. but, you know, he had been told by several people, just take the trees down. They’re just it’s just water maples. But my dad had him topped, and I’m just talking to arborist. They talk to people about, you know, let’s prune the disease away and and, you know, remove this branch that could cause a problem. But they they are at least the gentlemen and women I have talked to are kind of stepping away from just going in and doing what I would clear, what I would call clear cut. You know, that’s a problem tree. We’ll just cut it down to the ground. Problem solved. They’re they’re kind of having a a change of heart and trying to to prune these trees so they can remain growing and vigorous and stuff like that and do what the Mother Nature wants them to do versus the old way, which was just take the trees down.

John Perlin: Right.

Mindy Mcintosh: you know, and like the emerald borer, you know, they are injecting pesticides in the trees, as a pre-treatment, you know, in case the board comes into an area. But they’re also doing that for trees who have the emerald borer trying to save the trees so they don’t have to take them down. So there’s invasive insect isn’t killing all these trees because they’re changing species. They run out of, out of, elms. They’re going to another species. So I can’t I personally kind of see some change, but we have a long way to go before we can really solve this problem and, and really get a grasp as to how important trees are, but I think it’s a, it’s a little baby step forward. and educating the public to the arborist I’ve talked to are you know, that’s one of their components is they are they feel compelled to educate the public on the importance of trees and why the first step shouldn’t be removal. The first first step should be to try to save the tree. Um. And sometimes it’s just. It’s just not possible. I mean, the water maple’s on my dad’s farm are dead as a doorknob. And, you know, it’s just the way it is. But his first inkling was not to have the trees taken down to ground level. So, maybe things are changing just slightly.

John Perlin: Well, actually, what I show in my book is that over the thousands of years there were there was a lot of, cognizance of the value of trees to is that we’re not the first to realize the significance of what trees do. I show example after example, like for example, a Plato, where he noticed that when you remove the tree cover of the land became a bear. He said, like the bones of, of of a carcass without any meat.

John Perlin: So hopefully people, if they read the book, they’ll see a not only, how trees were, fundamental for civilization, but also how people actually, considered the care of trees as just as significant. And at the end of the book, I have maybe , pages about the evolution of the science of trees.

John Perlin: Where I show all the values that trees provide for our survival.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: And I think associating ourselves and looking at trees as, as a living organism, you know, they’re not it’s not just wood. It is a living organism. I did a presentation for someone else, and I wasn’t aware, that Johnny Appleseed. during that time something we were grafting and Johnny Appleseed. The apple trees that Johnny Appleseed went around and spread through North America. He started from seed because his. And I can’t even remember what. Religion he followed, but they felt that trees felt pain, and so grafting caused you no pain that you could avoid by just starting your trees from seeds. And you know, I’m sure some people just laughed about that, that that was just so funny. But we’re finding more and more about the communication between tree roots and, you know, just a completely different world as far as, as plants. And maybe they do feel pain, who knows. But, so based on your extensive research and experience, what are some best practices for sustainable forest management that you would recommend to professionals in the field? And I know you said keep people out of the forest. Do you have any other suggestions?

John Perlin: Well, I think to teach the world of what trees do for us, and people could make better decisions. Like instead of trying to find a if a coronavirus, you know, escaped from a lab, which is, uh. Quite silly to understand how deforestation created the breeding grounds for coronavirus. This is one example. Or for a water thirsty world realizing the role trees play in rain. Maybe this might, get people to, want to save the forest, too. Or, realizing that our only. Well, first of all, we have to come to the realization that global warming is real. Climate change is real. And, the only way, to resolve is, by, restoring the forest.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay.

John Perlin: Because as I said earlier in our interview, that the only takedown of CO available on land is the forest. Hu. So I would recommend my book. As well. Like people have said, it’s the the, it’s the Bible of the, of the forest.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

John Perlin: How trees have played without trees there would have been no civilization. And now without trees, there won’t be any civilization again.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: For those looking to make a positive impact in forest preservation, what practical steps or initiatives can you can they get involved in?

John Perlin: Well, one is, learning to build without using, timber.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay.

John Perlin: on a local level, put checks on the, wilderness and the urban wilderness interface.

Mindy Mcintosh: Okay.

Mindy Mcintosh: Is there anything that people like? Maybe in current I know they would be small trees. I completely understand that. But do you think people getting involved in their local community and maybe trying to plant more trees in their local community or their local park?

John Perlin: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s that’s all good. But realizing, if you cut down a tree, your, your seedling doesn’t replace it.

Mindy Mcintosh: How about, being more involved and maybe trying working with Congress or at the state level to try to preserve, you know, get more forested land protected from urban development or.

John Perlin: Exactly, exactly. try to tell people and I think this is wild, but, one of them I see this in Santa Barbara, for example, where I live is in the hills people are building. And when they build, they cut down the oak forests. So, real estate has to be, either like, limited or informed and, and I see the biggest problem in Santa Barbara with the, I like to hike a lot. Hu. And what I see is the, danger of the, of the terribleness of the urban wilderness interface where you see, for example, on hillsides only mustard plants growing because and all the oaks have been removed. Hu. And, you know, um. Basically to realize, and I hope my book does this because I was able to have the ear of all the best, of forestry scientists to realize what trees do for humanity. And then to make a rational choice. I mean, do we want to live in a world where, you know, uh. We have to live indoors because it’s too hot. And, you know, and a really big question comes in is. Fossil fuel generating plants and nuclear generating plants require rivers or, um. to, you know, you know, you know, to it’s called it’s called the thermodynamic cycle. They need, rivers to cool the, you know, the huge, engines to create more, you know, electricity. Hu. And this won’t be capable if we have a hotter earth.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

John Perlin: So we have to realize once again, it’s sort of like, the health, called one health, which I earlier mentioned. Hu. Animals. The health. Healthy animals. Healthy forests. Healthy humanity. Right. A very simple it’s called one health.

Mindy Mcintosh: And I think a problem in us is as we view ourselves segmented, we view ourselves removed from that because we can rationalize as a species. And, you know, having this, this idea, what I do in Indiana is going to have an effect globally. It’s going to have an effect on people, I don’t know. Never seen that type of thing.

Mindy Mcintosh: Versus it’ll have.

John Perlin: Effect on, us in Indiana.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right. But I think that mindset that, you know, it’s just what I do just affects my community. yes. But you know, there’s a ripple effect to that. and.

John Perlin: Well, well, actually, that’s what a forest journey is all about. It shows the movements of civilization because of the treatment of forests. So, for example, and this is hard for people to believe, even me, who’s, you know, I’ve been to these countries. Greece used to be like the Pacific Northwest. Hu. Then we cut it all down. Hu. Italy to the Greeks. Look like the Pacific Northwest. And then we cut it all down. Then to the Romans. The, um. Western Europe. And North Africa looked like the Pacific Northwest. Then we cut it down.

John Perlin: And you know and we don’t. And then we look to America. Eastern America. As the, Pacific Northwest. And then we cut it down, right. And then we look to the Pacific Northwest. As the ultimate, tree. Um. Place.

Mindy Mcintosh: Hu.

John Perlin: And now we’re cutting it down.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

John Perlin: In fact one of the I think amazing things that I learned from this project that I did in a forest journey is just in pictures. You see the size of the trees that were once there.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right.

Mindy Mcintosh: Yes, yes.

John Perlin: As logs.

Mindy Mcintosh: I did a project many years ago for the Smithsonian, and it was about the garden club at the time with what you’re talking about. And the women were just appalled at the redwoods being taken down. So they were actually the ones that got the ball rolling, so to speak, to get some protection from them. They were also involved in creating an alternative to chopping down a live tree for Christmas. They, you know, they really pushed to get something different, like an artificial tree where you could still have the same look, but you weren’t taking trees down. and it was just a group of women in a garden club that were just appalled by, by these huge trees coming down way, you know, a long time ago

John Perlin: Yeah, you know what? What I have in the book, for example, is an account of this tree that began as a sapling. Hu. before Socrates. And, you know, you could tell all the time changes and then it would have kept on growing. And I think it was . But then the, timber industry came and cut it down.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right. Just just some, you know, the with the history, it it’s something that we’re really going to as a society, as a global society, it’s a global species. We’re really going to have to sit down and think about and make some changes in our behavior. But while we, as you have stated, we don’t have the time, it’s going to take time to really come around. I mean, we had the the flower children in the s, s and s and, you know, all that stuff. We had Silent Spring, Rachel Carson warning about, you know, pesticide use and stuff, and yet we still use pesticides and, and etc. So it’s we don’t have the time to change, but it’s going to take time to change.

John Perlin: Well, actually, it’s amazing that you bring up Rachel Carson because, time magazine wrote that a forest Journey, my book is the forestry equivalent of, of Rachel Carson’s work.

Mindy Mcintosh: Oh, great. Great. I love her book. I’ve read her book a couple of times. So, I find it kind of interesting how she was. She was treated because she was a woman. But that’s another discussion for another day. So, John, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today. It’s been a truly enlightening discussion on the past, present, and future of forestry for our listeners, if you want to dive deeper into the fascinating history and crucial role of wood in civilization, be sure to check out John’s book, A Forest Journey. Thank you again, John, and to our audience, thank you for tuning in to Timber Talks. Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review and follow us on social media for more insightful episodes.

John Perlin: Well, thank you very much for having me. I hope I, added a few, interesting thoughts.

Mindy Mcintosh: You gave it a different perspective for people. People to look at. I’m very much an environmentalist, so I’m % behind what you’re saying. you know, I’m, I’m, I don’t I have a degree in ag, and I don’t use pesticides, which is kind of, you know, on opposite ends of the spectrum. But, you know, our society, if we’re going to make it, we’re going to have to change. As of right now, us getting on a rocket and leaving Dodge, so to speak, isn’t possible. so we we need this is what we have to work with, and we need to learn to work with it and in a respectable way. the only question is, do we have the time? Is, is the question?

John Perlin: Well, I think the real question is, do we have the motivation?

Mindy Mcintosh: I don’t think we do as a species. I think it’s too easy. And it and to me, history has shown that we destroy, we destroy this area and we just move on to somewhere else and repeat the same thing. And we’re running out of spaces to do that to. And so we can colonize Mars and continue our journey of destroying things and not learning from our, our mistakes. So, I mean, in this in this situation, individuals can make a small difference, but it’s going to have to be an industry change. It’s going to have to be personal belief changes. It’s going to have to be education, going to have to, you know, I used to be an educator. I used to teach and, um. You know, like we couldn’t. I taught biology in ag. We couldn’t use the word evolution. We couldn’t use the word big bang or the words big bang. We couldn’t, you know, and I’m like, well, just this was my stance on it. You may not agree with it. You may not believe it, but at least be educated in it so that you can defend your position of whatever side you want to take. But. There’s a lot of of selection of knowledge that is presented to the youth. And but you know, adults can can yeah, we’re going to do this and we’re all for it and we’re going to change the world and and we’re going to have it so our children can live on this big blue marble.

Mindy Mcintosh: And but if you don’t pass on the information and you don’t discuss the principles behind us, I mean, science is learning new things all the time. But, you know, there’s there’s always a cost. just like matter is neither created nor destroyed. I mean, there is, you know, whatever action you do, there’s a result. And unfortunately, in this example and we’ve learned it numerous times, the result is we are very quickly eliminating ourselves and we’re taking other species with us also. But, you know, we don’t have to do that. We have choices. Some people may not like the choices, but we do have choices. to to change our behavior. Just like. You know, other countries like China. People live in apartments. I mean, that’s not my cup of tea. I’ll be the first one to admit it. But, you know, does everybody on the globe have a right to live in a house on a quarter acre, you know? Can we just. And come up with some other solutions, some other building materials, some other ways of handling this situation so we can stay on Earth and not have to try to spend our time trying to figure a way to get to Mars. So did you have anything else you would like to say, John?

John Perlin: Yeah. I mean, um. It was interesting that you mentioned evolution.

John Perlin: Because the first true tree archaeopteris is what creationists hate because it contains both leaves that are fern like, but it has a trunk that’s like a pine tree. Hu. And so what it does, it’s one of the few examples we have of what’s called the transition fossil. Hu. Because it shows evolution in progress creating what we call the idea of tree that has perpetuated for over million years. and, Changed the world, to an overheated planet where only very small insects could survive on the land. Hu. to a Garden of Eden, with a plethora of, species.

John Perlin: And so we have the choice to maintain this garden or to return, to where life could only survive in the sea.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right, right.

Mindy Mcintosh: So that’s I’m very much, an advocate of, of education, you know, you have to educate people to get a change that I think sometimes in educating about topics like this, we forget about kids, you know, and and if we don’t educate or just present the science to the next generation, then, you know, it’s.

John Perlin: Well, let me show you.

John Perlin: Let me show you, the bark of a million year old tree.

Mindy Mcintosh: Oh, neat.

Mindy Mcintosh: Yeah. That’s really. That’s what I dug up.

Mindy Mcintosh: that’s great.

John Perlin: So this is the tree that changed the world. That changed the world from a planet, a like a planet. Where on Earth, only the smallest insects, like, oh, maybe, scorpions could roam.

John Perlin: To a oxygen filled, carbon depleted atmosphere where we can, happily roam.

Mindy Mcintosh: Right.

John Perlin: So this is, this is million year old, fossil of the bark.

Mindy Mcintosh: That’s great. John. Very interesting.

John Perlin: Okay.

Mindy Mcintosh: All right, well, I’m going to let you go.

John Perlin: Okay.

Mindy Mcintosh: All right,

John Perlin: I hope I gave you a good talk.

Mindy Mcintosh: Oh, you did, you did. I’m sorry for the mix up, but, we got our talk done. It was very interesting. I’m going to be getting your book because I’m curious.

John Perlin: Okay, great.

Mindy Mcintosh: very, very curious. So, so I will talk to you later, John.

John Perlin: Okay. Well, you have a good afternoon.

Mindy Mcintosh: You, too. Bye.