A Sustainable Future in Arboriculture with Kurt Stenberg

Episode Overview

Episode Topic

In this episode of Timber Talk, Mindy interviews Kurt Stenberg, founder of Cochrane Tree Care, to explore the intricate world of arboriculture and tree care. Kurt shares his journey from a career in firefighting and EMT to becoming a dedicated arborist. He discusses his motivations, the challenges he faced, and his passion for enhancing tree health and safety. This episode digs  into the importance of sustainability and environmental stewardship in the tree care industry, highlighting how Cochrane Tree Care incorporates these values into their daily operations. Kurt’s story is one of transformation, resilience, and a deep connection to nature, making it an inspiring listen for anyone interested in forestry and arboriculture.

Lessons You’ll Learn

Listeners will gain valuable insights into the field of arboriculture and the critical role it plays in maintaining healthy ecosystems. Kurt shares practical advice on strategic pruning, emphasizing its importance for both tree health and aesthetic value. He also discusses safety practices in tree care, highlighting the use of personal protective equipment and the benefits of battery-operated tools. Additionally, Kurt touches on the significance of sustainability in his work, offering tips on how to incorporate environmental practices into tree removal and pruning services. This episode provides a comprehensive understanding of the skills, knowledge, and dedication required to be a successful arborist.

About Our Guest

Kurt Stenberg is the founder of Cochrane Tree Care, a company based in Cochrane, Alberta, dedicated to enhancing tree health and safety. Before embarking on his journey as an arborist, Kurt spent 16 years as a career firefighter and EMT, experiences that have deeply influenced his approach to tree care. Driven by a passion for the outdoors and a commitment to sustainability, Kurt has built a business that values safety, education, and environmental stewardship. Through Cochrane Tree Care, Kurt aims to provide high-quality tree care services while promoting sustainable practices and educating the community about the importance of trees.

Topics Covered

The podcast covers a wide range of topics related to arboriculture and tree care. Kurt Stenberg shares his personal journey from firefighting to becoming an arborist, highlighting the transferable skills and life experiences that helped him succeed in his new career. The discussion includes practical advice on strategic pruning, the importance of tree health, and the aesthetic value of trees in landscaping. Kurt also explains the safety practices he employs in his work, including the use of personal protective equipment and battery-operated tools. Additionally, the episode explores sustainability in tree care, with Kurt sharing how Cochrane Tree Care incorporates environmental practices into their services, such as using mulch and minimizing waste.

Our Guest: Kurt Stenberg, founder of Cochrane Tree Care

Episode Transcript

Episode Transcript 

Introduction : Welcome to Timber Talk, the podcast where we interview experts in the forestry industry sharing trends, insights and best practices in the field. Be sure to subscribe to the show and leave us a review.

Mindy : I’m an author, I write herbal books, and  when I do zoom calls and stuff, it’s my apothecary in the back. I like it. I get comments all the time. What is the what’s.

Kurt : Drawing back there?

Mindy :It’s from the 1800s apothecary that’s near me. It’s actually going to do a podcast and I dressed in character, so I wanted the sound of the door opening and the bell and the feet walking on the floor, and, you know, as if somebody was walking into the Empire. That’s another reason for that. So I do apologize for this situation. Oh. It’s okay.

Kurt : No, it’s no problem at all.

Mindy : Do not know what’s going on.

Kurt : Well, hopefully it works in the end and it records and everything. So I think it should be..

Mindy : I’m just a cog in the wheel, so to speak. I’m just going to very briefly give you a little bit of my background. I looked at your website, and it was very interesting. I do have a degree in agriculture and a background in science and natural resources. I am familiar with forestry and tree trimming and was raised on a farm, too, so I’ve trimmed many trees

Kurt : . It all ties together, even agriculture and all these things, we’re all trying to grow plants out of soil.

Mindy : Yes. Trying to make the world a better place. I always like to just put that out there, that I’m not a novice at it. but I’m not an expert either. So, I do a lot of fruit tree pruning, which is different from what you do. Where I was raised has an orchard, so there’s a lot of maintenance of the trees and, and stuff like that from that aspect. So, . you ready to get started? Yeah. Okay. All right. Welcome to this episode of Timber Talks, the podcast that digs deep into the roots of forestry and arboriculture. I’m your host, Mindy. And today we’re joined by special guest Kurt Stenberg, founder of Cochrane Tree Care, a company dedicated to enhancing tree health and safety in Cochrane, Alberta. A brief overview of Cochrane Tree Care services is that they are a three pronged approach. They value sustainability, they value safety, and they value education. Kurt, could you share your story as to why you decided to start this company?

Kurt : Sure. I’ll try and give you the Coles notes, because it’s a long story, but I grew up and was a career firefighter EMT actually for 16 years and got out of that, sort of against my will, I guess, as far as mental health goes was restricted. How to find a new career, you know, a new life, essentially. We moved down to our area here in Cochrane, Alberta, and I don’t know what it was. Somehow I came across an arboriculture and saw someone in a tree, and I had done wildland firefighting as well, back in the day, my late teens, I guess, early 20s area. I loved using chainsaws and being out in the trees. So it just clicked. I just knew I had to be an arborist. . I went and got some training and started my own company right away. Didn’t even work my way up the ladder. I just went for it. But I was a mature adult. I guess you’d say I’m 40 now, so I thought I could handle bringing together some different life skills and transferable skills and start a company.

Mindy : Okay. All right. Was sustainability important to you when you started your business, or was that something that you really believed in? Because I was very interested in the sustainability component.

Kurt : No worries.

Mindy : I was just going to say I’m very much an advocate of education. And so I found that very interesting too, that that’s part of your mission.

Kurt :It wasn’t at first. Of course, when you start out in a new industry, you need to gather training and build upon all of these foundational things. In the beginning, I was taking courses on how to do rigging and climb trees and prune them. Then people would ask me what should I do to remove this tree? And it was, okay, there’s an insect or disease. I know nothing about it. I took some training on that, and that led me into the soil that led me to take permaculture courses. . meanwhile, I’m on a healing journey from PTSD or I guess I call it now.  I’m fully open about the fact that I use psychedelics, nature, plant medicine, to heal. And then I realized that there’s a lot more to life beyond, day to day, working and paying off your bills. There was a connection to nature, so everything fell together quite well, as I’ve built up more skill with Cochrane Tree Care doing residential tree work . I fell in love with the place. I was doing training at Arboriculture Canada and took a trainer course there and then started to do some education around that. I sort of niched and specialized in more of the tree health aspects of things, which then turned into Atmost tree.

Mindy : That’s a very interesting journey for you . As for tree care, pruning is an important part of your job. So could you explain how strategic pruning contributes to tree health and aesthetic value of. Because some people may not realize that trees in your landscape have value if you want to sell your property at a later date.

Kurt : I haven’t taken the tree appraisal course yet. And, that is definitely on my list now, because when I approach someone’s home and there’s a lot of people that call and they want to, you know, top their trees or they want to remove them, I don’t think they understand that. It does provide a lot of value to their home. if someone moves into a new place, they want to make it fresh on their own, right? They want to paint the walls. They want to cut the trees and the bushes out front so you can see the house. . I think it’s very important. I always try to encourage people to prune rather than remove and provide them with a bit of education. It takes a little more time, but I think it’s really important to help them understand that they can preserve their tree, and maybe have it look more aesthetically pleasing, especially when it comes down to the point that they’re ready to remove the tree. Then I’m ready to do a little bit more severe work if I have to. Although, as time goes on, I am trending towards pruning less. I’ve always said less is more with pruning as far as tree health because, honestly, we’re putting cuts into trees. We’re introducing opportunities for infection and decay to get into the trees. We’re taking away biomass that could photosynthesize for the tree. Plus, we’re asking that tree to now compartmentalize internally and while off that potential for decay. So pruning needs to have a purpose. I don’t just prune for the sake of pruning if there’s, limbs obviously going into the house or the trees, but ugly or someone stopped in the past and it needs correction. I need a reason and not just make my tree smaller, like that’s not that’s not good enough.

Mindy : Well, in my background I taught landscaping and I’ve, I’ve preached a hundred times to plant the tree as if it was a mature tree. That way you don’t have to prune it away from your house or it’s a lot easier. It doesn’t look as aesthetic in the beginning, but it looks a lot better in the end of the story, so to speak safety is paramount in your tree care. I know where I’m in the US and, you know, there’s two trains of thought: cherry picker, or climbing to prune. How do you know what types of practices you do when you’re pruning to ensure safety? Because, I’ve seen our utility company, they just shear that tree off to get it out of the utility lines. It’s not always the safest way that they do it. So what do you do to make sure that your pruning process is as safe as possible? 

Kurt : We’re not going to lie, overall, the industry of arboriculture is extremely dangerous. It’s under regulation and there’s not a lot of enforcement on safety practices. There’s no certain credentials I need to be or anyone needs to be an arborist, at least where I’m from you can just go out and do whatever you want. Essentially hurt the tree. . cut it down without  a helmet.of course, there’s zones and different things that could enforce things, but usually that’s after an incident. I try to get up close to the tree. I do prefer to climb where I’m from. The trees aren’t massive, so it’s not a huge deal. I don’t require a bucket truck. I’m in a smaller town. Smaller area. . and I’ve never wanted to build my business model as having a lot of equipment that’s going to make removing tree material more efficient. I want to be a little more personal with the client. . Like I said, I like to be hands on. I climb the tree, I try to get up close and use your hand pruners and hand saws, sharp tools where I can see where I’m making these cuts. And, while I’m doing that I’ve tried to avoid using ladders. I find ladders to be dangerous myself, or secure them and work with someone else. That’s a huge part of safety. Is having someone there with you. having the homeowner aware that you’re there.and then just using regular PPE helmets, gloves, eyewear, consistently not getting complacent with those things. Tying in Obviously you need to be tied in twice as per the ANSI guidelines with the lanyard for work positioning and also a means of egress. It’s more about self-policing yourself to do all of these things, because no one’s going to be tapping you on the shoulder and enforcing it really day to day. So that’s the technique that I use.

Mindy : I noticed you use battery operated saws. . have you done that from the very beginning, or did you start out using gas and then decide to change due to safety?

Kurt : I started out with a 72 cc Pro saw, which had a huge bar on it because some decreased how much I spent to get started.I figured a big saw could do everything. But after that I have a bit of a background in photography and started up an Instagram account, got a little popular on social media, made some relationships with different companies, including Husqvarna and I was sent saws, thanks to Husqvarna. I honestly used what they sent me and received some sponsorship. They sent me a lot of their electric products, especially when they first came out to try them out. I fell in love with them, and not necessarily from an environmental aspect. I know there’s negatives to building batteries and things like that we’re not the most efficient as we probably could be with a lot of batteries and how we source those materials. But, having a lot less noise is nice, less noise pollution, a lot less pollution of these fumes that are blowing up on you, on your clothes, that you’re breathing in, not having to spill gas and fuel up every time.It’s less trips to the truck. The batteries actually last quite a while all of these things and less maintenance on the saw, you open them up and you don’t have to do a lot of greasing and cleaning they’re simple. They’re great products.

Mindy : There’s two words that are hot topics now: sustainability and environmental stewardship. We’re hearing a lot about these types of topics. So in your sustainability, how do you incorporate environmental practices into tree removal. And you’re in your pruning service. Because I noticed on your site, do you offer the option that the homeowner can deal with the wood themselves if they want to use it in their fireplace? But, how do you handle and where do you take that is sustainable, your debris for your tree trimming service?.

Kurt : Thanks. Great question. I’m sure it’s similar to lots of companies. But I’m not going to sugarcoat the fact that arborists are removing a ton of trees out there. Probably more than need to be removed because it takes a little extra skill and time and care and attention to convince someone to preserve their tree and to prune it. I saw this as a bit of an issue and, I thought, what can I do with my business? of course . I just recently purchased a chipper, a chipper has its own negative effects, too, but a chipper can at least create much with some of the debris. and mulch can be an amazing input for creating compost or mulching garden beds and that sort of thing. And taking that carbon that was built and captured from the environment with these trees and putting it back into actually growing other plants. If I can, we store the mulch and we allow mycelium and different microorganisms to break it down and sit there, and then we’ll give it away to family and friends, we’ll use it in garden beds. I used to burn some of my material, which, you know, I’m not too proud of, but it was kind of the only way I can make a business. and then otherwise.I leave firewood for clients. That’s mostly an easy thing. I don’t want to be lifting the wood. But of course, as we know, if you burn firewood, you’re just putting the carbon all right back into the environment.

Kurt : That’s not really a sustainable thing to do. Although it is collaborative and allows me to get out in the community and share some of these fruits of my labor. I guess you say with the community in that sense. I’m not sure if you want to get into it, but this is where I came up with the idea for Atmos Tree. I started an organization for arborists because I realized the day to day making money. The bread and butter is pruning and removing trees, and a lot of people don’t have time to deliver their mulch to clients. And make sure it’s getting reused. Oftentimes it ends up at the dump. So at most, tree is an alliance designed for arborists. It’s free to join and it’s an off site, 2 to 1 tree replacement program so arborists can join their company Atmos Tree. I send them decals, you know, all of their line item descriptions for their quotes like thank you cards, little PDFs, all this kind of stuff to help promote the fact that they are a part of Atmos tree and they charge a small recycling fee, $20 in the US, $25 in Canada. And then they collect those funds, we accept them quarterly, and then we take that and we plant two trees elsewhere so that I’m in charge of finding and partnering with different organizations up here and planting trees in a good, sustainable way.

Mindy : Is that part of your I mean, I could see how that blooms into part of your educational mission, is to educate, . you know, part of education is giving back. So that ties perfectly into your mission. I’m considerably older than you. So I’ve seen how forestry management has changed. Where do you see forestry, the future of forestry? Because we have many pressures on our forests. . today with urban development, we have a globe that’s changing, environmentally changing. . so where do you see, let’s say, 20 years from now, where do you see the future of forestry being?

Kurt : It’s a difficult question. I think, honestly, we’re at a crossroads right now or we’re a little beyond a crossroads in the negative, . you know, or, quote, negative side of things as far as using up a lot of our resources in the world and whatever. And that’s always up for debate. There’s a lot of political and monetary influence behind some of those reasons. But, ultimately, yeah, I think we have lost a lot of forest over the years, and not just from residential and building, but like a lot of agriculture. . I look around to untouched areas, even where I am from, and there’s forests standing, where no one’s kind of bothered about it. And then I kind of had this epiphany, actually, almost recently, that where I see the foothills and the and the lands of grasses or things, fields where there’s no trees growing, that at one time there was a lot of trees and biodiversity growing there. But it was gone before I was even born or even in this area. So I kind of assumed that was how the native landscape was, but I don’t believe it actually is. And as we expand in, these forests go down. Of course, we all know we’re losing a lot of this biodiversity and carbon recycling and capture from the environment. So, . I hope the Atmos tree is going to bloom and flourish into supporting, maybe a regenerative approach towards this.

Kurt : I think as a lot of our systems start to maybe get stressed and pressure, you know, supply chains, all these kinds of things with more pandemic, just how the world is changing in general, people are going to pay attention more to, . sustainability and being able to live within their communities, trade with others and hopefully grow their own food. I think permaculture is going to gain in popularity and people, you know, understand how to be more resilient, maybe even capture their own rainwater, build in redundancies in their properties so they’re not constantly reliant on the grid, all these kinds of things. I think it’s going to be a difficult and challenging change in the future. But, things like Atmos Tree, I hope can support this and we can continue to find land and home owners, . you know, reservations with indigenous people, all sorts of areas, . you know, river banks, whatever it might be. Or we can have the greatest benefit planting these trees to control erosion or bring back that biodiversity or whatever it’s going to be just to get more trees back in the world. And the more arborists that joy and the more trees we can plant. So that’s my goal and my hopes for the future. But as far as where we’ll be in 20 years, I don’t know.

Mindy : That’s a big goal, but I can see it happening. I mean, change is hard. You know, we’ve been doing things certain ways for so long and many disciplines, and I do agree that change is going to have to happen. And . so so how important are you mentioned about the classes that you’ve taken and you’ve also mentioned that there really isn’t a certification, so to speak. So how important is ongoing education for this particular field? . Because you did say earlier that, you know, anybody with a chainsaw can go out and cut a tree. So do you feel that in the future, there’s going to be requirements for more training or certifications for arborists or do you think? Yeah.

Kurt : From a safety standpoint, I hope there is. . I mean, I took advantage of the fact that there wasn’t. So I was able to use, you know, all these freedoms to start a business and get going right away, which I leveraged and thought was amazing for me. But I also took it upon myself to get that education and do things properly. And not everyone has to do that, or they don’t realize that there is more to learn. . I’m sure there’s lots that I don’t even know, right? You don’t know what you don’t know yet. So, . some regulation does exist in other provinces around here. You know, there’s apprenticeship programs. There are some schools. Of course. There’s the ISA International Society of Arboriculture that does try and do things like standardize a bit of a, . introductory overall arborist certification that requires you to have a few years of experience, and then you write an exam, and then they also require you to have continuing education kind of points from doing, . some follow up courses or seminars or whatever it might be to keep your certification. But the Isa certification itself is not mandatory and required in many places. It’s kind of an optional type thing. So I think it’s coming, but I don’t know, it’s not necessarily a new industry, but. It’s kind of always been sort of, I don’t know, underground or tied in with landscaping and forestry and that kind of thing. So I think it’s coming. . it just needs some new people at the front of that, to kind of push that way ahead, I guess.

Mindy : Okay. All right. . so looking ahead, what are some new technologies that your Cochran Tree Care is contemplating on using? Because, . I have three drones. So I do know some people will use drones and take them up so that they can see what’s going on in the canopy of the tree. . so what are some new technologies that you’re considering using?

Kurt : I don’t know how much for technologies. I mean, my, my new chainsaws have Bluetooth on them. Ah, but I mean, honestly, technology’s becoming more frustrating, it seems. And I find the more it interferes with a lot of this stuff, especially things in the natural world, it’s just causing problems. . more than anything, I think we honestly need to get back to that. Personal connection with people. Like technology already limits my interaction with clients, right? I got people that make requests online. They send in photos, I quote them, they’re not even home. I go there and they prune their tree, and it’s like, I’ve lost that connection with someone. Someone that I could meet, create new opportunities, get more word of mouth referrals from them. So in my opinion, I think we need to use technology where it’s appropriate. It could help us out day to day, but we also have to make a conscious effort to kind of go back to maybe some of this personal interaction, maybe being hands on in the trees, touching these trees. As Alex Shigo has said in many of his book and his teachings, and be less reliant on massive chippers and feller buncher type equipment that encourages more tree removal in these herbal in these urban settings, like when I go to like the TCIA Expo for arborists, you walk out on the floor and the majority of the booths are companies that are selling massive equipment and products with new technologies.

Kurt : It’s like there’s no no, I shouldn’t say none, but there’s not a lot of emphasis on tree care preservation, you know, the biology and understanding how things grow in the first place. It’s more like, oh, we’re dealing with an urban environment with trees and plants that are getting sick. How can we help the arborist just cut these down and earn more money, you know, and that’s that’s where I come in with education. I have a podcast, The Arborist Blueprint, . where I’m talking to all sorts of different people that are kind of on the fringes of arboriculture, trying to bring in new ideas, trying to share my opinion and perspective on this industry, provide great education for new people coming in, provide education for people that want to be great leaders and mentors to other people. . how to be a better person, how to decrease stress, . all that kind of stuff that’s going to help people just to be better humans and more conscious about being an arborist and caring for trees rather than just being a tree company that cuts. That makes sense.

Mindy : Yeah it does. I taught a class last week and on a particular topic, and, . I was just kind of in this mood of fables when I created the PowerPoints for this class. And so each topic has a children’s story that has to do with what I’m teaching. And this particular day it was Johnny Appleseed. And so, . I mean, I knew the story of Johnny Appleseed growing up in the United States, but I wasn’t aware that the reason Johnny Appleseed started trees from seed and not grafted was because during that time, they felt that grafting a tree caused pain to the tree. And, . I thought that was really interesting because we’re learning more and more about how trees communicate through their root system and how they protect each other. And, that, you know, we are constantly learning more about our outdoor environment that I hope changes our attitude toward it. So just cutting a tree down, you know, if you can envision that that tree could feel pain. That’s another perspective, you know, on tree removal, as far as I’m concerned, I don’t want to cause pain, you know. But yeah, then you know, that idea of vegetation, you know, we envision animals having pain, but we don’t envision plants having pain. So that’s kind of an interesting, . in a time that we’re in where we’re kind of swinging back to being more or trying to be more or environmentally responsible, . but at the same time learning more about what really our actions do, you know, not only for the environment, but causing pain to organisms that we never.

Mindy : knew before, could you theoretically feel pain?  What this has just been. Actually, you and I could go on and on and on because we’re very much on the same wavelength on this. . so, . I love the fact that your company is this three pronged Cochrane tree care, this three pronged mission of sustainability, safety, and an industry that really doesn’t have safety standards and education. I’d really like to thank you for kind of our hiccups that we’ve been having and sharing your experience and knowledge. . on improving tree health and doing it in a safe way, I would encourage our listeners to explore Cochrane Tree Care website to learn more about Kurt’s services and sustainable practices. . I would also encourage you all to check out his nonprofit that he has started. . as far as planting more trees on the planet and to subscribe to timber timber talks for more discussions in the latest in forestry. I’d also like to remind listeners to not forget the importance of responsible tree care for a greener planet. Do you have any questions for me, Kurt?

Kurt : I don’t have any questions, but I’d like to just clarify that Most Tree is not a nonprofit. It’s a conscious business. It’s not. No, it’s a conscious business, which means that a lot of the profits are used towards collaboration with other people sponsoring things within the industry to plant more trees. So I believe that things do not have to be a nonprofit to be beneficial. And I promote conscious business, and that’s part of my podcast. And if people want to get in touch with me, the best place to probably go is at Kurt the Arborist on Instagram. And through there I’m linked to Cochrane Tree Care at Most Tree, The Arborist Blueprint podcast, that sort of thing. And they can discover all the things that I’m up to there.

Mindy : I do have more questions on that. Do you, . go to schools and talk to schools, children about the importance of trees and planting trees and things like that to educate the future generations or.

Kurt : Yeah, nothing, nothing on a regular basis, just things that pop up here and there, maybe through my own kid or in our local community for different things like that. But okay, nothing. Nothing on a regular basis. No.

Mindy : Okay. All right. Any questions for me on the sidebar?

Kurt : No, I think I’m, uh. I think it’s all good. Yeah. All right.

Mindy : I’m really passionate about what you’re doing. I think it’s great. . I wish the US would join forces in doing that, but maybe it’s coming. I mean, you never know. Yeah.

Kurt : It’s coming. I have a bunch of alliance members already from the US, and it’s just about connecting with arborists out there to let them know what it is and that it’s out there, and it’s an option for them to voluntarily join. So hopefully somebody hears this and they write and they, they join up. And then that’s two, two more trees planted for every time they cut one down and look after it for them. Right?

Mindy : I mean, we really need it. We’re learning, you know, more and more that we need green spaces and forests and, you know, with urban sprawl, it’s kind of a give and take type of thing, at least in the US. I mean, apartment buildings and all sorts of stuff is popping up that shouldn’t be popping up, but it is. So, if people started planting more trees and being responsible, and learning a few things about their outdoor environment, it would definitely make a better world.

Kurt : That would probably change a lot, to be honest. Change their perspective on who they are or how they fit into this world as humans and that we are nature and how we’re all connected. Be more compassionate and thoughtful, and then that’s the root of everything underneath that. Then, we’re not using and abusing trees, and we see the consciousness that they do have and how important they are and all this kind of stuff.

Mindy : Yes. I think Japan and now and Japan really . I find it interesting that where we are, we have memberships to, . Jones, they have memberships to forests so they can walk through the forest and have the beneficial bacteria fall on them to build up their immune system. So they will start doing that too.

Kurt : . yeah. It’s not crazy. Turns out walking in nature is good for you. I know who would have thought something so simple and natural what it’s like. Oh yeah.

Mindy : Yeah, it’s really close to me. Where? Well, close to where I was raised. There’s a state park. And the story goes with this gentleman. We’re talking 1910. . he was sick and he kept going to the doctor, and the doctor phoned and said, I didn’t know what to do. To do for you. . and what I would suggest is you go walk in the forest. And so he, you know, started ten minutes and then he worked up to an hour and then a couple of hours, and then he decided he wanted to be a naturalist. And so but, you know, a prescription in 1910 to go walk in the forest is kind of eye boggling in today’s time. . how it can be so simple. Yeah. To feel better, to get exposed to some sunlight and trees and birds and all that. Good. Yeah. Yeah. One of mine.

Kurt : Big thing is I tell people to try and mimic nature. You know, if you can mimic nature in so many different ways, it seems that things have to trend upwards and get better, right?

Mindy : Right. And not to fear nature. You know, I have a yeah, I have I know some people that are afraid I actually kind of joke if they, you know, they think the sky is going to fall if they go outside. But . yeah, we, we are one with nature. We have that nature to be healthy. Yeah, in many aspects. So. Well, thank you so much for your time.

Kurt : Thank you.