Revolutionizing Tree Care The Holistic Approach of Tree First with Jeremiah Sandler & Jack Novak

Episode Overview

Episode Topic

In this enlightening episode of Timber Talks, host Mindy dives deep into the world of forestry and arboriculture with special guests Jeremiah Sandler and Jack Novak, the innovative minds behind Tree First. The discussion centers on the latest trends, innovations, and best practices in tree care, emphasizing the shift from traditional, productivity-focused methods to a more holistic and ecological approach. Jeremiah and Jack share their insights on the historical evolution of arboriculture, highlighting how advancements in equipment and technology have shaped the industry. They also critique the prevailing focus on efficiency at the expense of quality care, advocating for a balanced approach that prioritizes the health and longevity of trees.

Lessons You’ll Learn

Listeners will gain a wealth of knowledge from this episode, particularly about the nuanced differences between traditional and modern arboriculture practices. Jeremiah and Jack explain the importance of thorough, quality tree care and how it can be achieved without sacrificing productivity. They also shed light on the economic and ecological implications of tree removal versus preservation, offering compelling arguments for maintaining mature trees. Furthermore, the episode explores the innovative use of technologies like sonic tomography for advanced risk assessment, demonstrating how these tools can enhance the decision-making process in tree care.

About Our Guest

Jeremiah Sandler and Jack Novak are the co-founders of Tree First, a trailblazing company in the small arboriculture movement. With a commitment to sustainable and conscientious tree care, they have been instrumental in promoting practices that prioritize the health and longevity of trees. Their approach challenges the traditional industrial mindset, emphasizing the ecological and economic benefits of preserving mature trees. Jeremiah and Jack bring a wealth of experience and a fresh perspective to the field, making them leading voices in the movement towards more thoughtful and effective arboriculture.

Topics Covered

Throughout the episode, several key topics are discussed, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of modern arboriculture. These include the historical evolution of the industry, the impact of technological advancements on tree care practices, and the importance of balancing productivity with quality care. The conversation also delves into the economic and ecological considerations of tree removal versus preservation, the use of sonic tomography for risk assessment, and the growing trend towards holistic and sustainable tree care. Jeremiah and Jack’s insights provide valuable guidance for both professionals and enthusiasts looking to enhance their approach to arboriculture

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About the Guest: Jeremiah Sandler and Jack Novak

Episode Transcript

 Mindy: Welcome to another episode of Timber Talks the podcast, where we explore the latest trends, innovations and best practices in the forestry and agriculture industry. I’m your host, Mindy, and today we have two very special guests joining us, Jeremiah Sandler and Jack Novak. The dynamic duo behind Tree First. Tree First is renowned for its pioneering efforts in the small arboriculture movement. Welcome, Jeremiah and Jack. Let’s start by diving into the incredible innovations and advancements in forestry and arboriculture. Jeremiah and Jack, can you share some of the historical evolution in this industry and how Tree first has contributed to this landscape?

Jeremiah: You want to take it?

Jack Novak : Yeah. Well, yeah. Thanks for that awesome intro first and foremost, , pleasure to be here. We, . Yeah. With regards to, like, the historical evolution of forestry or I guess in our case, more specifically arboriculture. , the thing that we’ve seen a lot emphasized in, in the industry is advancement in, uh, equipment and, and technology for, , you know, as far as, like, chippers and like and like big forestry units, , chainsaws, you know, things like that. , think, you know, we, we.

Jeremiah: Sort of see the historical advancements in arboriculture as sort of taken a wrong turn somewhere in that there is a there’s a big emphasis on productivity. Yeah. And of, , you know, doing things as quick and yes, to a degree, we like that things are becoming safer. Don’t argue that. But we argue that with the emphasis on productivity , sort of that’s being traded for quality tree care. Does that answer that question? I feel like, yeah, we did. We get off track there.

 Mindy: No, I think where I what I see and where I live is the standard. If you had a problem with the tree, it was taken down in the story. But, you know, with prescription, , techniques injections. , I’m trying to think what else there’s more diagnostic going on than what has been in the past. I mean, , heritage trees, stuff like that. They did do, uh, prescription approaches and injections because the value of the trees. But at least in my area, you know, if you have a tree problem, you’re going to have somebody come and take it down versus trying to treat it. So from my perspective, that’s what I see.

Jack Novak : That’s that’s kind of the yeah, that’s kind of the, the seemingly the standard for our area too. , yeah.

Jeremiah: And we think that that approach of being nuanced and thorough and thoughtful, that that approach given to heritage trees can also be given to like regular residential people that have big trees. And it’s often not. And there’s probably a lot of reasons for that happening. But I think the industrialization of the tree care industry is a major contributor of it.

 Mindy: Right. And I think because it in some cases it might be cheaper just to take the tree down and plant a new tree because, you know, depending on the species, the tree is relatively inexpensive or can be inexpensive. So from an economic perspective, unless you’re just madly in love with a particular type of tree in your yard, it In the past at least, it tended to be more economical to take the tree down. But at least in my area and some of the other things I do, , I’m seeing a change in the view of urban trees. And, you know, not only do they bring beauty, but they also bring economic value to whether you’re talking about a landscaping or a Tree city or, you know, something along that line. So there’s an incentive to try to keep a tree alive versus taking it down and, and just replanting. So.

Jack Novak : Yeah, I think there is an argent to be made that like economically, sure, you know, the one time payment of having to remove a tree, uh, might seem and then following that with a replanting, you know, might seem like the way to go, but, , ecologically, they just they it’s apples to oranges, you know, a brand new planting does not serve the ecology of the environment nearly as well as, like a large, mature, even veteran tree. So, , I think just kind of reframing the way we view trees not as being like this commodity. Oh, I can just remove and replant and I’m doing my part. , I hope that’s.

Jeremiah: That was.

Jack Novak : Concise. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was good.

Jeremiah: Well said.

 Mindy: Well, we’re learning more. I mean, like in Japan where we buy a gym membership, they buy a forced membership because we’ve learned to strengthen our immune system. We, you know, walk among the trees and they drop bacteria on us. That helps us, , become stronger as far as our immune system. So, , but, you know, old habits die hard. My area. If you have a problem, they take the tree. Tree down. Yeah. You know, and, , you know, in more, , environmentally concerned areas, you know, the mature trees are a larger carbon sink than a sapling or and so we are kind of circling back around and, and seeing kind of, you know, we really need to keep the big trees to reduce as part of our plan to reduce carbon production. So, , so, uh, can you tell us about some key historical advancements in forestry and how they have shaped modern practices? So we’ve kind of touched on that. But, , just as an example, do you see some differences from like five years ago, what? Uh, arboriculturalist were using, like in salt, uh, development technology. Do you see a big change happening? , just with saws SaaS as an example.

Jeremiah: Yeah, with the advent of these battery powered saws, I do like that. I know that, , on a, on a user basis, it’s nice that it’s quiet. I’m not getting exposed to all these fees. , I know that on the other, the.

Jack Novak : Neighbors appreciate it, too.

Jeremiah: Yeah, yeah. With it. So I do like that. And I know that, , there are there’s a few larger battery powered saws now, but on the other side of that, I know that there’s, , some ethical dilemmas with lithium mining, which is a major ingredient in these batteries. So, like, I don’t want to go down that whole rabbit hole, but just like everything there’s, there’s pros and cons. But I do like that the Esau’s strictly speaking, on the user basis, uh, I do like the saws a lot more than the gas powered saws.

 Mindy: Well, I, , I was raised on a farm, so, you know, I mean, I’ve taken trees down, I’ve split wood, I’ve. And I’m only five one, so I’m not a huge person. But I did a product review for, , a little bitty saw and battery operated. , I have to say, I really liked it. It’s not really conducive to farm life, but it’s really nice, simple to use. Sol doesn’t have a big kick to it. Battery operated, two hour battery life. So you know, for which I really don’t want to say it this way, but for women, it seemed like technology was kind of catching up and producing products that were easy for women to use, who, you know, just wanted to take saplings down or, you know, this saw would only handle some small trees. , but I thought that was kind of interesting that that technology, at least in my mind, was kind of steering into that, into that direction. My only negative with that saw was, is I have really small hands. So it was a two button system and wearing my safety gear, I couldn’t I had to take a glove off to try to. So it was still kind of styled for a man’s hand, but it was very lightweight. And, , I was like, yeah, you know, five years ago, women didn’t have technology like that. We had to use the big swords. So that’s how I kind of see it’s it’s, , uh, identifying that men and women are going into that field, whether you’re a DIY or at home or, you know, you’re trying to do it as a profession. So that’s kind of how I see the change. I’ve also, , I don’t have it in my area, but I never realized that they were using cranes. I’ve seen cranes used to to replant like, really large trees.

Jack Novak : , yeah.

 Mindy: But I’ve never seen in my area cranes being used as far as to remove material and, and stuff. So, , I think that’s kind of cool. So, yeah, it’s a very.

Jack Novak : Popular method for, for around here with how large the trees are and usually in inconvenient places to, to get to. Usually a crane does make, uh, life a lot easier.

Jeremiah: And sort of on what we touched on a few points ago about like just historical developments, I think like the accessibility of these cranes and making removal easier is good for like worker safety, but it also opens the doors for like the removals to be an easier option for people. Mhm. , and that I think is a slippery slope. I’m sure we can talk about that. Yeah. You know all day. But yeah I think making removals is easier is a double edged sword.

 Mindy: Right. And I’ve just through interviews and just some things I’ve observed how a lot of agricultural technology is seeping into arboriculture because we have prescription farming and, you know, there’s, uh, prescribed methods, injections and stuff like that for trees. Do you all use drones at all?

Jeremiah: No, we.

Jeremiah: We’ve considered it in some of our risk analysis work just to get a more zoomed out image of the tree. , but we’re not doing any, like, big surveys or anything like that. We’re more on, like, the individual, like residential sector sector. Yeah. So I think the drones definitely have a use, , in certain applications in arboriculture and in forestry too. But not we would get it probably just for cool photos. Yeah, but not for any, like, productive means.

 Mindy: Well, I have three drones for some other projects I do, and they are cool. , yeah, I’ll have to say they’re really cool. So, , when I saw the drone technology coming out, I had I had done a business competition for a wearable drone for farmers, small farmers that I told my husband, I’m going to have a drone. And so once you get one, you’ve got you’ve got to get more. So, you know, I like that technology. But again, it’s you have to use it responsibly and it has to be used for the right, the right reasons. So, , how has tree for a tree first incorporated new technologies and methods into the operations to stay ahead in the industry. So we’ve kind of touched on drones. We’ve touched on, , uh, chainsaws that are utilized with batteries. Is there anything else? Are you all using like AI or any, anything like that to try to stay ahead of the curve?

Jack Novak : I mean, I think we we implement sonic tomography in our practice pretty regularly. , and while that’s not really a new technology, I mean, we’re on the third iteration of the Picus. That’s the one we use right now. , it’s not something that we see very many, uh, arboriculture practices like offer as being a service. , so we’re trying to, trying to implement that, you know, these advanced forms of risk assessment. , so people and us can have a better understanding of, you know, what’s going on with the trees.

Jeremiah: , and I think in, in another way, in the, in the opposite direction. , I think we’re sort of I don’t want to say we’re going backwards, but I think we’re going more sideways than with the trends. Yeah. The trends being like bigger, chipper, bigger truck, bigger everything.

Jack Novak : We operate out of a van with the small chipper and, uh, have an overall, like, really low footprint. Yeah.

Jeremiah: And that that allows us to like, not really have to keep pace with new tech. Uh, and instead sort of allows us to do more hardcore arboriculture, which I think is how we stay ahead of any trends. Really.

 Mindy: Okay.

Jack Novak : So could you we kind of we kind of like, uh, separated like a, like made a delineation between what tree work is and what arboriculture is. Yeah. So I think a lot of the industry trends that we’re seeing right now and like the technology and equipment being developed is, is a little more catered to tree work as opposed to arboriculture. Mhm.

 Mindy: Could you explain the sonic I mean I understand it, but not everyone is going to understand what you’re talking about as far as using sonic technology on trees, could you give a brief explanation about that?

Jeremiah: So sonic tomography is a tool used in advanced risk analysis of trees. This there’s multiple different sonic tomography tools. There’s not just one but in essence what these machines do. There’s also electronic tomography as well. But these tools function in more or less the same way you set up. Just as an example, let’s say you want to have a better understanding of the decay in the base of a tree. And this client doesn’t want to jp straight to removal and they want to be thorough. One of the tools at our disposal is, , the tool works that you set up a bunch of sensors around a single horizontal plane of whatever plane you’re looking at, and these sensors will then, in turn, produce a sound. And each sensor sort of picks up what the other sensors are telling it. And through some crazy math, it produces then an image that is called a sonogram. And the sonogram is sort of like a cross-section scan of whatever plane that you’re looking at. , you can do combinations of multiple planes, and then the software can also sort of stitch them together and how it thinks a three dimensional space looks. And with that information, you can then take it to a certain software that can help quantify safety factors and strength, loss of that stem. , and also can help give you prescriptions on how to reduce the safety factor of that area.

Jack Novak : , increase the safety factor. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Increase. Yeah.

Jeremiah: Increase it. , and, , it’s important to say too, that these tools aren’t just like magic. It’s not like you do a scan and it tells you yep, it’s good or no, it’s not.

Jack Novak : It involves some interpretation. Yeah. You know, you.

Jeremiah: Still have to make a judgment call. And similarly when you use the data you collect in the software, the software isn’t gospel either. You know, it still requires nuance and thoughtfulness when using these tools. But really, at the end of the day, these are tools to just gather more information to better or to make better decisions about trees.

Jack Novak : And also, , like the function, like so sound will travel. I think you kind of missed like how the how the general or how the image is generated. So like healthy would or sound would is going to have sound waves travel through it differently versus like decayed or like transitional uh, transitional decayed wood. So from the speed at which sound travels, that’s how, uh, the image gets generated, you know, from quote unquote healthy wood to, you know, decayed wood or, or like if it would.

Jeremiah: Be helpful to we can send you some photos of some of our scans so that the audience can see, like what, what those might actually look like.

 Mindy: Okay. That’d be great to to just put that so people can see it. So it, it you actually are utilizing a technology that’s been used for years in the medical field, but you’re using it with trees.

Jack Novak : Yeah, a lot of people compare it to like, ultrasounds. Yeah. Right. Right. And that’s kind of, you know, when, when we’re sort of talking with clients, that’s sort of the analogy we use. Yeah. , and.

Jeremiah: Like often that kind of stuff is reserved for really high profile trees. But what we’re trying to do is make it just more accessible to lay people who want to take care of their trees.

 Mindy: Right. So have you all ever. I mean, I know augmented reality is a big thing. Have you ever taken the information, the scan of the tree and put it in augmented reality to explain about the damage to that would be cool.

Jack Novak : Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeremiah: No, we haven’t done that. Okay. That would be. That would be super cool.

 Mindy: Okay. All right, I saw a show last night on that. So different topic, but, , I it just came to mind. , could you share a specific example of an innovative project that tree first has been involved in recently?

Jack Novak : Well, we just got back from, , uh, Spoken Loam, which was, uh, an awesome conference out in Alberta, Canada. , , it was the first one that Emmy had put on and it was an awesome success. , so that was a, that.

Jeremiah: That conference was sort of in line with this whole small arm movement away from big production stuff and more towards like, conscientious tree care. Yeah. , I guess. Yeah. So we were speakers at that conference. , but I guess we didn’t really have a hand in, like, making the conference itself. We were just participants of it. , but sort.

Jack Novak : Of in that same vein, you know, I think our, our most, like, passionate project that we’re on is actually like the development of, of our own, like, business model. You know what? We’re what we’re calling the practitioner model. , and in trying to develop a way where passionate arborists, you know, can have a practice that is both purposeful and also profitable without exploiting trees to make money.

 Mindy: Right. Well, we’ve had you know, there’s been several industries that have had the the slow movement. You’ve had, , you know, slow cooking instead of, you know, 20 minute meal, you know, cooking more from scratch. So it sounds to me like you guys are kind of moving into that, that slow movement, but with arboriculture. So yeah. Yeah. And and treating it as, as a patient doctor relationship with the trees versus just take this tree down so we can move on to, to something else. So you know, it’s funny.

Jeremiah: That’s the exact analogy that we often use when we’re explaining this kind of thing.

Jack Novak : Yeah. Our clients are the trees. Yeah. Right.

 Mindy: Right. , so very interesting.

Jeremiah: And we could, you know, we could expand on that a whole bunch. But I will just plug an article. , we do have an article more specifically about that subject on our website if anyone wants to check that out.

 Mindy: Okay. All right. , now, looking ahead, what do you see as the future of forestry in arboriculture? Do you see this more slow, careful precision type of technique taking on like wildfire? Or do you see maybe a divide between, , you know, quick and easy arborists that just want to take the trees down versus the doctor patient physician type of , or do you see maybe, uh, kind of a combined approach for the future?

Jack Novak : I mean, anecdotally, we’ve spoken to a lot of other arborists, , all all across the country just in private about, , sort of this feeling of like dissatisfaction with, with their job. , and just feeling like they have a lack of purpose and they feel like they’re doing something wrong to trees. And so, you know, I think that there is this movement beginning, uh, where the smaller the small arm approach is sort of on the horizon. It’s still, I think, in like the very infant infant stages. , but I think from that movement getting, getting more traction, I think we will start to see a divide from production tree work to like more thoughtful and purposeful arboriculture. And, you know, I think this isn’t just a bash. Bash, uh, production work. You know, there is a place for it. There is a place for it, you know, when you’re working in, like, the municipal sector, , and you’re managing a lot of trees. , you know, there is. Yeah, there is a place for it, but I, I think, , I think this division of tree work and arboriculture is something that, that we kind of anticipate being, you know, like being on the forefront. Yeah.

Jeremiah: And I’d like to. I’d like to be part of that.

Jeremiah: Yeah.

 Mindy: Well, , you know, this, this idea of, of the, the more of a pruning approach versus taking down that’s been happening for years in fruit orchards. You know, we prune them to, to increase production, , because mature fruit trees are pretty expensive. So we want to try to preserve them as long as we possibly can. But your all’s idea, do you all know the story about Johnny Appleseed?

Jeremiah: I mean, maybe not as. Yeah, okay. Well, yeah.

 Mindy: Johnny Appleseed was from the 1800s. I taught a class, a gardening class, and I had kind of a weird way of presenting the information. But Johnny Appleseed was a real person, and he went around North America passing out fruit trees. And during this time, uh, people were grafting, and Johnny Appleseed followed a certain religion that didn’t believe in that because they felt the grafting process caused pain to the trees. So all the apple trees he distributed, he started from apple seeds, which when you mentioned about the pain and in that type of thing. So being gentle and kind to the trees has, you know, maybe went further back than now and it’s just recycling. , because I didn’t I didn’t know that about Johnny Appleseed. I was I was using him as an example to teach a point, and I was like, that’s kind of interesting.

Jeremiah: Yeah, I’ve.

Jeremiah: Never explored that character. I’ve known that he was a real person. Yeah, but I never I never really explored the character.

 Mindy: Yeah. And and the communication system of the roots of trees, how they protect each other and, and, uh, you know, they send signals out with one of their own, is being attacked for beneficial insects to come and try to help. And so, , you know, science is catching up with this concept of, of only removed when you absolutely have to and, you know, treat them more of a patient than. Yeah.

Jeremiah: And there’s ways.

Jeremiah: To reduce there’s ways to reduce risk without reducing it to the ground. Right. You know, uh, and there’s, there’s so many treatments and there’s so many ways that you can get data about trees that can inform what to do with them is that it’s there’s so much more to be explored with the caretaking of trees that, , it’s a it is an actual shame that the two options are given to people are just like, prune it or kill it and that’s it.

Jeremiah: Yeah.

Jack Novak : And I think when clients are are given these more, uh, in-depth ways of like analysis or just even thinking, yeah, just, yeah, just even thinking about it, they’re really receptive to it, you know, but they’ve only been exposed to a handful of ideas, which is usually pruning removal or, uh, nothing. Yeah. So, you know, it’s, , you know, we have more tools in our toolkit for, for dealing with trees and, and something that we say a lot is like when you’re approaching, you know, the way we approach is like, we have to think like a tree, not like a tree guy. You know, tree guys love making cuts and like, uh, removing trees and then posting it on the internet for everyone to watch. But trees are really into, like, having good soil and being watered, and, you know.

Jeremiah: They’re their plants.

Jack Novak : Yeah, yeah, yeah, they’re living organisms, you know. , so, you know, I think that sort of mindset is, is hopefully something that we see more of, see more of, , yeah. Going on in the future.

Jeremiah: Okay.

 Mindy: , so if, if an arborist was intrigued about your all’s, , approach to tree maintenance. What would be some suggestions for professionals who, , wanted to pursue this healthier approach versus just taking down what would be some suggestions you would have?

Jeremiah: Things. First is that, , gosh, I could talk forever about this. First things first is that you have to care. , and of course, you have to care about your safety. Once you’re after that point, you have to be able to study trees as living organisms and also know how to differentiate. Just because you know how to make a cut, you then have to graduate to asking, when should I make that cut? Do I actually have to make that cut? , there’s I think there’s a lack of emphasis on in tree care, like education. I think there’s a there’s a lack of emphasis on tree bio and there’s a lack of emphasis on like the ecological roles that trees play. , that , the best way I can say that is to zoom out more as someone who’s like, considering practicing in a more holistic way, , and moving away from this like amenity viewpoint of trees as just being, like, beautiful statues and more towards like this is a living thing serves multiple roles and one of which is that like literally makes the environment better and makes the environment kind of what it is. And without those things, we don’t know how to take care of those things. I don’t think you I don’t think you’re an arborist until you know how to take care of trees.

Jack Novak : Yeah. And there are credentials that you can get, but the one thing that we find that credentials don’t teach is perspective. And, you know, this perspective of being a caretaker of trees is, you know, something that we think every arborist should, should have. And you know, just because you’re, you’re talking to a certified arborist doesn’t necessarily mean they care about trees. They just were able to pass a test, so. Right.

Jeremiah: Right.

Jack Novak : It, you know, prudential hunting and credential chasing is a huge thing in our industry. And , you know, it might.

Jeremiah: Not be the best place to spend your efforts. Yeah. It’s better to spend your efforts in, like, learning how trees work and how to improve tree vitality and also to, uh, to separate tree risk from tree stress. , those are two different domains of arboriculture that, , one should explore deeply and understand that these are not the same thing. You know, generally speaking, for example, we’re pruning for stress or I’m sorry, we’re pruning for risk. And, you know, if we want to alleviate some stress, we’re probably going to address the soil. , we’re generally not pruning for tree health.

Jeremiah: Yeah, right.

Jeremiah: That was that was long and tangential. Sorry.

 Mindy: So, , what you would suggest would be to, for arborist who are considering going into more of a holistic approach to educate themselves.

Jeremiah: Yeah.

Jeremiah: And I know that’s a generic answer, but like you really you have to you absolutely have to.

 Mindy: Okay, well, it’s really that way in any industry. You should, you know, educate yourself on on different aspects and kind of test the waters occasionally to see if there’s a better way of, of doing, you know, whatever the, the position, whatever the job is. , so how do you see technology transforming the industry in the next 5 to 10 years? And I’m going to kind of narrow this down. , as far as your all’s holistic approach, how do you see technology changing how you holistically take care of trees in the next 5 to 10 years?

Jack Novak : Well, I mean, like a lot of, uh, testing, like we do a lot of testing, you know, whether it’s, you know, making use of soil labs. , we have a, , a root testing kit that we, . Yeah, we’re just beginning to implement and, and sort of work through, , I think really like testing by other means than with a chainsaw. So, you know, I think, I think that is, , that’s something that we’re going to see a lot more of, , that’s what I, that’s what I’d like to see.

Jeremiah: Yeah, yeah. And I’d also like to see more, uh, field testing, , applications. Yeah. You know, if I didn’t always have to send things to a lab because sometimes I don’t need super precise results. Sometimes I just need, like, kind of precise results. So if there was, like, a, a boom in, like, field testing technology, that would be sweet. I’d be all over that.

Jeremiah: Okay.

 Mindy: All right. Well, so everything that you tell, like stool tests and stuff like that, you currently have to send out.

Jeremiah: Yeah, largely. Yeah. We can do some basic pH testing. , and we can also do, like basic texture analysis ourselves. But, you know, when it comes to chemical analysis, like, yeah, we can’t do anything meaningful out in the field.

Jeremiah: Right.

 Mindy: So you’re talking about NPK.

Jeremiah: Yeah. Or micros or, , like, uh, in this area, , calci saturation is something that we think about a lot in soils. , so yeah. Yeah, things like that. Like we just, I just can’t, like, find those things out in a quick way.

 Mindy: Right, right. Do you all offer any, like, just for the general public, do you all offer any type of classes that deal with your holistic approach? Because as a matter of fact, I have a neighbor that is handicapped. And anyway, he hired a tree service. Well, a nursery, it was a nursery to plant these two trees, which they did wrong. And, u, he had family plant and shrubbery, which was done wrong. So just be neighborly. I went in and and redid his entire landscape because from my background, if you do it correctly, from the very beginning, it reduces problems down the road and we have like crazy amounts of clay where I live. And , sorry about that. , so we have to de-glaze the whole if we’re planting a tree or shrub. , because if we don’t, we’re going to lose that tree and probably 5 to 10 years. So do you all provide any holistic educational classes for the public?

Jeremiah: We just gave our very first international presentation last weekend. Uh, and it was it was at that conference in Edmonton that we mentioned. , I think that’s something that’s on our horizon. Uh, I think that a lot of people, what clients tell me and Jack that, uh, that like, do you guys teach anywhere or, you know, or tell us that we should. , it’s a tricky thing, I think, to balance running the practice and, , , developing like a curricul. Right. Very interested in it. , but currently it’s not something that we do. I guess it’s sort of a class when you hire us and you have a consultation with us, it’s sort of like a class.

Jeremiah: , one on one class.

 Mindy: One on one class.

Jeremiah: Yeah, right. But it’s not like zoomed out big picture. It’s more like that specific case that we’re talking about, right?

Jeremiah: , yeah, we are exploring it.

Jack Novak : I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah, we are. , we have. Yeah, we.

Jeremiah: Actually have some really cool ideas. Yeah. Uh, I don’t want to spoil on accident, but yes, we we think that that’s in our future.

 Mindy: Okay. All right. Well, I just know, like, again, I keep going back where I am in Indiana. There’s a lot of misinformation about tree care. But, you know, it starts from the very beginning. I had I used to have these beautiful Colorado blues, and when I bought them many years ago, they were five foot in height and they were just going to town. And I needed a new roof. And I had noticed when I was mowing the grass, there was this black like, gravelly substance behind one of my Colorado blues, and I thought it was the gravel coming from the roof. It wasn’t my neighbor, not the neighbor I have now, but the neighbor prior had changed the oil in his vehicle and had poured motor oil. And by this time I Colorado blues were like 20ft in height. And needless to say, I wasn’t happy. So I went over and confronted the man and he informed me that motor oil didn’t kill trees.

Jeremiah: It’s like, I would love to ask, like.

Jeremiah: How do you know that?

Jeremiah: Yeah. You know.

 Mindy: , it took my tree down, but I was, ah.

Jeremiah: You know.

 Mindy: Yeah. I was like, we really need some education here. Yeah.

Jack Novak : And I think, I think, I mean, Jeremiah does a lot of article writing and, and all of those, you know, articles are on our website. Yeah. Just open to the, to the public. So I think in, in an indirect way, you know, we do provide some educational material for people that want to learn more. , and in.

Jeremiah: That too isn’t just tree science stuff. Yeah. It’s also like I talk a lot about just like ethics in arboriculture and like perspective and, , yeah. And to be honest, I think we are having an influence in that way too, because we get a lot of people responding to those articles in a positive way.

Jeremiah: Mhm.

Jeremiah: Uh, and also to those articles, some of them are in the Tree Care Industry Association magazine. Uh, some of them are a small percentage of them are.

 Mindy: All right. So wrapping this up, , what is some practical advice and best practices for the listeners when it comes to just basic tree care that you would give like your top three? Water.

Jack Novak : Water water trees. Yeah. And as an arborist, it’s just important to, , exercise this idea of, like, critical thinking, you know, don’t don’t be so quick to jp to conclusions. You know, I get a lot of positive response from clients when when I say, you know what, like I got an idea of what’s going on, but I got to go home and and think about this, you know, and, you know, they really appreciate transparency and like this, this sense of like, hey, I’m, I’m, I’m thinking about this. I’m not going to jp to any conclusions. And , yeah, I think it’s made me a better arborist. Just like just practicing the art of thinking. Yeah.

Jeremiah: Thinking about.

Jeremiah: Arboriculture.

Jeremiah: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremiah: And to, like, client. I think people often think that when you’re talking with a client that you should have all the answers. And that’s totally not our experience. What they expect you to do is think about it. And when they see that, like you’re sort of already winning their trust without even producing an answer.

Jeremiah: Yeah. Right. Right.

 Mindy: So do you are the on average, are the customers, , wanting to learn or are they more likely just do your job and and just leave me alone type of approach with.

Jeremiah: With our with the branding that we have online and specifically on our website. , the clients have sort of like self-selected, , in that they are choosing us for a very specific reason. , and so we found that by large, by and large, like they want to learn or they care. We have very few times where people tell us, hey, shut up and just do it. , yeah. Often we’re having conversation with these people.

 Mindy: Okay. All right. So they are on purpose selecting your holistic approach versus just.

Jeremiah: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremiah: We don’t use any of like the basic like internet SEO strategies, like our branding is very much like I think I even say on the website, if you’re looking for like thoughtful tree care, we’re looking for clients like you. Mhm. It’s very black and white.

Jeremiah: Right, right.

 Mindy: Well thank you so much Jeremiah and Jack for sharing your insights and experiences with us today. It’s been a fascinating discussion to our listeners. Make sure to check out tree first at Tree First. Org for more information about their innovative work in forestry and arboriculture. Don’t forget to subscribe to Timber Talks for more episodes with industry leaders and experts. Until next time. I’m Mindy and this has been Timber Talks. So do you have any questions for me?

Jeremiah: , I do.

Jeremiah: Okay.

Jeremiah: You have a background in agriculture? Mhm. , and early on in our conversation, you touched on, , how there’s our agricultural practices that are, uh, for lack of a better word, like leaking into arboriculture. Right. One of those that I’ve always thought was, , sorry If you can hear the neighbor whacking.

Jeremiah: You know.

 Mindy: What? You know what? I’m. I’m perfectly fine with that. I to be completely honest with you, I I’ve got crazy people all around me, so that doesn’t bother me. Okay, cool.

Jeremiah: Okay. , you know, so.

Jeremiah: , what I’ve always thought about looking at, like, tree fertilizer, , analysis, whether.

Jeremiah: There’s.

Jeremiah: Just super high numbers. I understand that these plants are, generally speaking, large plants, but, , I wondered that I think a lot of agricultural fertilization is those numbers are often high because these plants are being grown for production purposes. They have an explicit goal with these plants, but with trees. I’ve often found that when I look at how other people are fertilizing them, I’m like, dude, why? Why are we putting down so much of these things? And I’ve often wondered, does has that practice come from agriculture?

 Mindy: I would say so. I, you know, , I’m one of those people I don’t water unless I test, you know, I don’t I have a rain gauge. I’m not extremely anal about what the rain gauge says, but as far as fertilization, yes. , because the farm prices have been so crazy that farmers will just throw fertilizer on a crop hoping to increase the yield, whether it actually does that or not. And farmers are very familiar with NPK, but unfortunately, you’ve got me on a soapbox here. So extension agents that farmers go to for advice. Their income comes from acento because Monsanto is giving money to land grant colleges. So of course they’re going to encourage over fertilization. I’ve had a couple of private clients that had some really unique products that they and different types of fertilization and stuff, and they couldn’t get anybody at a land grant college to work with them. The reason is it’s not an essential product, so they’re not going to. So yes, it’s a carryover because the research that’s being done as far as from the academic perspective, is being done at land grant colleges that get money from Acento, which is a really large fertilizer producer. So it’s yes, it’s kind of all woven in together. , and, you know, it’s not the best practice. I don’t follow that, but I’m not really I well, I’m not connected to a university, so I can recommend whatever. , and I’m more of an organic gardener, more holistic. Want to do it right the first time? , and I do know motor oil takes trees down, you know. So.

Jeremiah: Yeah. So. Yeah. Well, thank you.

Jeremiah: Thank you for that because I, we often like, , we get clients that’ll ask us about fertilization and stuff, and we always say, like, without a soil analysis, like, we’re not like, unless you’re seeing, like, an explicit, obvious nutrient deficiency.

Jeremiah: Iron.

Jeremiah: Or. Yeah, I’m not gonna put stuff down unless I know what’s going on.

 Mindy: Well, the problem is, even the soil test, the soil test recommendations are based on an acre, right?

Jeremiah: You always have to convert to square footage and.

Jeremiah: Yeah.

 Mindy: And then by the time you do that, the recommendation really doesn’t make much sense. , so I’m very much an advocate of, of using organic substances. I’m very much an advocate of going back to the old way of using like manures, , versus the chemical fertilizers that.

Jeremiah: We use.

Jeremiah: Biochar a lot. Yeah. , so another another question then a more if I can ask you a more like specific question.

Jeremiah: Sure. Go ahead.

Jeremiah: We have a lot of in this area, uh, river birch that are chlorotic. Generally speaking, we have alkaline soils here that are really high in calci saturation. , but we’ve thought, like with the nutrient levels being adequate in both leaf tissue and in soil analyzes, we’ve thought like, well, perhaps we should try to adjust the pH. But of all the literature I’ve read and in school, I’ve always been told or read that changing soil pH is super difficult without constant input. , like, do you? Do you think something like that is even worth trying?

 Mindy: No, no I don’t. I mean, sometimes you just have to go with what you have and just hope for the best. So no, I wouldn’t try that to change the pH, because it’s going to be a never ending battle because that soil has a natural pH that’s been created by all the the elements that, you know, sort of like making a cake. And if if you’re using a chocolate cake mix and you want to change it and you add raspberries to it, it’s still going to be a chocolate cake. You’re just going to be this constant, you know, reapplication. , so I want it I want wouldn’t try to fool around with the pH because it’s going to cause a cascade of problems. Once you start that, then it’s going to cause another problem. It’s going to cause another problem. And, , you know, it’s very easy to go when you’re fooling with the pH. It’s very easy to go from one extreme to the other very quickly, and then it’s hard to get back, you know. So I would just leave the patch alone, okay?

Jeremiah: Yeah.

Jeremiah: Because this year more than ever, we’re seeing like, you know, we have chlorosis here and there on like red maple or pin oak or whatever. But we’re seeing it a lot on River Birch this year. And a lot of people are asking about it. , and each time I’m looking into them keep coming back as like pH is of like 7.5, 7.4 and like, nutrient levels seem adequate. I’m like, I think this is it.

Jack Novak : Kind of like what, uh, what? Ben goes, yeah, yeah.

Jeremiah: Like, how.

Jeremiah: Do you answer? And you know this, of course, I don’t know if this is true or not, but the client would say, well, just started looking this way, but these are like mature sized riverboats that are 40, 50ft tall. Mhm. , you know, so some, some part of me wonders like could they have even gotten to the size if they were chlorotic their entire lifespan. , or is their observation correct in that it’s suddenly changed? , right. That’s something I wonder about.

 Mindy: And, you know, the other thing is, , our climate’s changing. You know, we’ve had. Well, they refer to them as walking trees where trees are moving up to elevations. , and it could just be a response to the climate change. And there’s nothing you can do about.

Jeremiah: About.

 Mindy: That.

Jeremiah: I wish we could.

 Mindy: But we can’t. , I mean, we’re having temperatures in southern Indiana, 90 plus, and we normally don’t have that till August.

Jeremiah: Yeah. So yeah, you know, early June. Yeah.

Jack Novak : That’s a good point. I mean, I mean weather and climate is I mean aside from water that is the next major. Yeah. Major variable in in addressing plant. Yeah. Plant health and, uh, you know, yeah, we are seeing.

 Mindy: This global change. Some of the invasive species are kind of falling by the wayside, but others are just going crazy. Kudzu in my area is crazy. I know you can make whiskey out of kudzu, but.

Jeremiah: , I think.

 Mindy: Yeah. Yes, that’s a lot of whiskey. I think that would be a great, you know, value added product for Aggies. But, , you know, we’re we’re getting some really weird pests and some invasive species are just going crazy. And, you know, we’ve got some, some plant material, whether it’s flowers or bushes or native plant material that’s just suffering terribly from this global change. So I would I wouldn’t feel.

Jack Novak : Such a good point.

Jeremiah: Yeah, yeah, I.

Jeremiah: Put that on my notes. I, I put a star next to the word climate. Yeah. Yeah. I think you nailed it. Yeah.

Jack Novak : That is such a good point. Because yeah, it can be frustrating when we’re going through all of the.

Jeremiah: Yeah I’m looking through the literature. Yeah.

Jeremiah: Find anything that’s helping me.

Jack Novak : It’s like oh yeah. What about like the weather.

Jeremiah: Right.

 Mindy: And you know, we had a lot of rain earlier in the year. And I have some funds that put out, you know, they’re they’re country folk. They plant three rows of potatoes. I went and do that. I’ll just go to the store and buy potatoes. I’ll, I’ll plant something else and those three 75 foot rows then potatoes. But we had all this rain and they I’m going to say they lost probably three fourths of what they planted. And we had rain like monsoon rain really, really early in our season. And that we normally have like what I call a rainy season that lasts like two weeks and then it dries up. But this went for like six weeks and and we have clay soil. So when it stopped it was still wet. So I think there’s a lot of a lot of changes. I mean, I have crazy Japanese honeysuckle. It is literally it took part of my privacy fence down. It’s it’s crazy. And when you have that invasive species, it changes the soil chemistry. So does fireball bush. And you can’t grow anything because it changes the soil chemistry. Nothing will grow once you take that out except Japanese honeysuckle or fireball fireball bush. So I mean, there’s just so many aspects, , that with when we deal with, not with the natural environment that we haven’t really had to deal with before. , and some things we can control and some things we just can’t. We just got to go with it.

Jack Novak : With, , you know, your experience in, uh, agriculture and, like, how plants affect, you know, the, the surrounding soil. What do you know of, like, what impacts grass has to, like overall soil pH, if any. Grass. Yeah. Like turf.

Jeremiah: Grass.

 Mindy: Like turf grass. Well, yeah. , you know, if you’re, if you’re talking about like a golf course, one of the big things and it just literally drives me crazy that the lawn care companies.

Jeremiah: , oh, I love it.

 Mindy: They they just drench people’s yards with high nitrogen fertilizer, whether you need it or not, because it causes grass to green up. I mean, that’s what nitrogen does. It feeds the foliage essentially. So you get that beautiful green, uh, grass. And they also spray paint your grass too. But that’s another story. But, , as as far as if it’s like my yard, I don’t fertilize, I just let nature do its thing. So it really doesn’t have an effect as far as n-p-k, , but if you live in an urban environment and you have a, you have a lawn service, come in and they, they fertilize the ground and you’re going to have a high nitrogen problem, which is going to affect everything. Because, you know, we don’t have little walls around our root systems of our trees and stuff that, you know, we can isolate that nitrogen. And they’re not always the most careful of spreading that fertilizer. So, , high nitrogen is a big is a big problem, but they have to use it to get that instant greening, , of the grass.

Jeremiah: So to your.

Jack Novak : Knowledge, does it affect like pH levels at.

Jeremiah: All?

 Mindy: I’m not aware of it affecting pH levels. I just know if you live in a or drive past like a subdivision that has many rich people that are paying for lawn care, if you look in in like the drainage ditches or creeks and stuff, you’ll you’ll see the greening of those surfaces where the runoff from the nitrogen is causing water pollution. But as far as the pH, I’m not aware of, of really any change in that. I don’t think there’s many studies being done, if any, on the high nitrogen fertilizer used in the turf industry, because if there was, they wouldn’t be using all this high nitrogen fertilizer because the EPA coming down on them. So but.

Jeremiah: Yeah, gotta do some.

Jeremiah: Studies then.

Jeremiah: Yeah. Yeah. Well it’s crazy.

Jeremiah: Though that too because the, the like nitrification of soils and of like waterways like that’s a known that’s a known thing. But I think I think AG gets a lot of that blame. How much of that blame do you think should actually come down to like urban fertilizing practices like in lawns?

 Mindy: I think a lot. Uh, my neighbor next door to me, he’s handicapped, but he’s got a fertilizer spreader and you know it. Just last weekend, he wants me to prune the shrubbery, which the man has one hand. I’m fine with that. I’ll help him out. But, you know, his first inkling was this. This? Uh, boxwoods not looking the best. And he had two approaches. I’m going to put fertilizer spikes around it, or I’m just going to pull it out of the ground and it’s only $14 and I’m just going to replace it. And I was like, no, don’t do either one of those, you know? But he also, , didn’t use landscape cloths. And he also the previous owner had lined her landscaping with black plastic bags and couldn’t figure out why nothing would grow. But, . Yeah, yeah. , yeah. So, , I don’t even remember the question now. Oh. About egg. So I think, yes, eggs gone down for a lot of the pollution issues from fertilization, but lawn care services, I mean, I have this philosophy. If I see somebody that is doing something outside and they’ve got a hazmat suit on, I don’t want it near me. And these people suit up. They’ve got the the gloves, they’ve got the boots, they’ve got, you know. And that tells me that one it’s not healthy for the environment. And two, they’re probably not trained. And three, they’re probably doing something they shouldn’t be doing so, but they’re never going to make the lawn care companies responsible as with AG, because AG is actually a bigger abuser of the fertilizer situation as an example.

Jeremiah: Well, and I think it’s.

Jeremiah: Also tricky because and I’m not I’m just playing devil’s advocate, , with AG. These crops are creating something of value, whether it’s potatoes or corn or like there is some input back into society from their efforts. But the same can’t really be said for like lawn care services, aside from like beautifications from a beauty standard that’s like 200 years outdated, right?

Jeremiah: So yeah, so like.

Jeremiah: The turf industry has nothing, no legs.

Jeremiah: No legs.

Jeremiah: To stand.

Jeremiah: On.

 Mindy: Well, actually our concept of lawn came from France, from Versailles Palace. , so it’s been a long. I’m an international author on gardening books, so I used to teach AG, too. So, . But anyway, that. Yes, you’re absolutely right. It. But it’s a status symbol. That’s why in North America, the 13 colonies, they knew if they if they kept the field away from the door, it reduced the number of rodents that would come in the house. But then you had aristocrats in France that had these these finely tuned gardens and these manicured lawns. And if you want to show you have status, you’re going to do what the aristocrats do. So, yeah, you know, we have lawns now and, and the amount of pollution that’s produced by lawn mowers and the amount of pollution produced by pesticide, herbicide, uh, fertilization just for lawns is crazy, but it goes right back to the status thing. In my opinion. It goes right back to the status thing.

Jeremiah: So yeah, I think you’re exactly right. Yeah. And it’s a difficult thing to get out of.

Jeremiah: It’s so ingrained. Yeah. Yeah. Well like I.

 Mindy: Had every may I do no mow May on the farm and so I don’t do the entire no mom because my dad I seem to I know it’s another topic, but my dad’s neighbor is an urbanite, and I had my drone out one time and he came over and proceeded to argue with me about it. And the argent really what it had to do with essentially was I was a female out using a drone, and he didn’t like that because he didn’t say anything to my husband when he took the drone up. But, , I only do half of the farm for no mom for the bees, because the bees are coming out looking for food and stuff. And in the in this year, I did no mom in my backyard and I have a privacy fence. And so I needed gas because I have a push mower. So I’m on my my urban yard with a push mower and I hadn’t got cash yet. Well, neighbor of mine called City Hall. Anyway, the city came. I call him love notes. Gave me a love note on my door, told me my grass was too tall. And I go through this not every year, but periodically. Probably. I’d probably been down this road probably eight times, and my whole stance is, well, how do you know my grass is in violation? We have those magical nber of eight inches. I don’t know where the heck that came from. , but you know, this this concept that, you know, your lawn has to look this certain way, and you can.

 Mindy: I mean, they try to cite me for having a bull thistle in my landscaping. And, you know, I had to laugh about that because when I was at Purdue, I came in second in the legal weed competition, which I don’t tell a lot of people that, but it was it was a big thing for Purdue. And so I do know my weeds and I, you know, I have actually taken a big yard stick and stuck it in my ground and measured my lawn and went by, you know, I’m not in violation. You eyeball it and it’s your personal opinion and you don’t like it and I don’t care, but it’s not against the law. So again, I think it goes right back to this whole status status thing. Your grass has to look a certain way. You know, the way I do my grass, it’s a natural weed controller. The way they want me to do my grass is not which goes against how I function. So, , I think for to swing this back around for the turf industry to, to be partially responsible for the fertilizer problems. I think, you know, this entire concept, like you all are doing a holistic approach to lawn care needs to start. And and, you know, it’s not a crime. You know, if your grass is over eight inches, it’s, you know, just the way it is.

Jeremiah: So yeah. Yeah.

Jeremiah: And like one way that like we’ve said this before in other contexts, but , it’s, it’s more important to consider, like crimes against nature as being, like more meaningful set of laws to abide by. You know, it’s not a crime against nature to have grass longer than eight inches.

Jeremiah: Yeah.

 Mindy: I mean, this is I, I actually asked, well, who made that decision and, and what’s her credentials.

Jeremiah: You know, based on what.

 Mindy: Yeah. It’s your opinion. , you know, and you can’t win when you’re dealing with with a city that, you know, it’s just a no win type of situation. But, you know, just like the the motor oil with my tree, nobody cared about that. I cared about it. I knew it was going to cost me economically. , I knew the economic value of my tree, but nobody cared, you know, trying to trying to change that mindset. And, , as a matter of fact, this is kind of a sidebar. , I had a neighbor. I know I’m being sarcastic when I say this. I know the neighbor didn’t do it. It was a group of garden fairies that went down and got a table that he had put up for the trash, or someone to pick up to reuse, and they carried it all the way down to my house and put it in my yard. They were so nice doing that, so I took pictures of it. I was about to send a nasty, uh, social media post about it, and my husband came home and I said, that’s not our table, and I know exactly where the garden fairies got it. So my my husband was leaving and he helped the garden fairies take that table back and give it back to the neighbor.

 Mindy: But just the the simple respect of of when you live in an urban environment and whether it’s motor oil behind someone’s tree, dping your trash in somebody else’s yard, being respectful that, you know, they may have a different viewpoint, , of how their yard looks. You know, it’s it’s this, this cookie cutter approach. And if it doesn’t fit that cookie cutter, too bad type of type of thing. So, I mean, I have I’ve been in this area way too long. And I have to say that’s the first time I’ve ever had the garden fairies do that. I’ve had some garden fairies do some weird stuff. But but I was livid. I mean, I was like, I don’t know where you came from or how you were raised, but you know, you need to go back to school on on how to properly act in a society because your behavior just really peeves me off. And, , so we kind of got off topic on that, but but I don’t see the turf industry taking responsibility for the fertilizer issue. We have. , AG will will carry that load, unfortunately.

Jeremiah: So yeah. Yeah, it is.

Jeremiah: Unfortunate because I mean, yeah, I acknowledge that it is problematic indeed, but, uh, yeah, at least there’s something to show for it, good and bad. But with with lawns like. Yeah, it’s just nothing.

 Mindy: And the problem is going to increase because we’re losing farmland. And the more farmland we use, the more demand we’re going to have on the farmland that we still have, which means we’re going to increase our fertilizer use to increase with this idea that it’s going to increase yield, and plants can only produce so much you can breed them to produce higher yields. But there reaches a point sort of like vitamin C, vitamin C is a water soluble vitamin. So we drink our orange juice in the morning and our body takes up what it needs. And when we go to the bathroom, we expel whatever vitamin C our body didn’t need. And the plants are the same way. They’re going to take up whatever they can use, and then the rest is just going to be waste. So the fertilizer issue is going to become a bigger issue the more farmland we lose.

Jeremiah: So why do we lose farmland?

Jeremiah: Losing it in my in.

 Mindy: My state, the, uh, the governor increased just residential property. The property tax is about, well, not in the urban environment like I live on like a quarter of an acre and my property taxes are about $1,200. farmland. The property tax used to be $150 an acre, and it’s up to $2,000 an acre. It went from 150 to $2000 an acre. Now, just say you can just do the math. , a small farm, you know, 25 to 50 acres, you know, and it happened with no warning. I mean, it was just bam! It wasn’t even done in increments where farmers could prepare and went from 150 to $2000 an acre. So what happens is farmers have to sell to.

Jeremiah: Yeah. And they’re forced.

Jack Novak : To sell their property so that they can develop these residential areas.

Jeremiah: Wow.

 Mindy: Yes.

Jeremiah: That’s nuts.

 Mindy: And, you know, there’s a lot of of since you are young guys, there’s a lot of under the table deals. I there’s a piece of land that’s probably, , half an acre. It’s got five natural springs on it. The gentleman that owned it, uh, a woman bought his house and she said, I really don’t want anybody living behind me. And he said, there, there’s no way anybody will live behind you because there’s five natural springs. , and the farm, we use septic systems, so it has to the water, the to build. You have to pass a percolation test. We don’t have sewers. But where I live now, we have a sewer system. So, you know, that property had just been allowed to grow up and be beautiful and everything for at least 50 years. And a developer came in and sweetened the deal and was able to develop. And there’s about 18 houses on that property and every they have, like what I call half basements. And so the half basement, well, all it does is it holds a, , a sp pp to keep the water away from the homes. And lord forbid, if the power goes out, but it’s because they built on a piece of very small piece of property that has five natural springs and everybody’s backyards, a drainage ditch.

 Mindy: I, I that’s just crazy to me. I don’t know why somebody would buy a house for the back. I mean, literally, you open the back door and there’s a drainage ditch. Bad, bad planning, bad use of land. , you know, but it had never been able to pass for for development before. And then all of a sudden, you know, it it you know, if you don’t pass the first time, I would asse you’re probably not going to pass the 20th time you try. But you know. But that’s why we’re losing. We’re losing farmland for a couple of reasons. We’re losing farmland due to property tax increase. We’re losing farmland because farming is not being promoted at the college level as, as a, you know, a respectable type of career. It’s dirty and it’s nasty. And if you can’t read and you’re ignorant and all this stuff, you’re a farmer. So nobody wants. Nobody wants to do that. And, , hands on learning generation. They don’t want to do that either, because they want to play video games and all that stuff. So these farmers have no one to pass the farm on to, , you know.

Jack Novak : Like there’s a decreasing interest in it.

 Mindy: , I mean, people like to eat.

Jeremiah: Yeah.

 Mindy: We don’t have the interest.

Jack Novak : They like to eat Doritos, though. Not. Not, uh, not potatoes. Well, you.

 Mindy: Gotta have corn for that. But, I mean.

Jeremiah: It’s it’s a.

 Mindy: Complicated. It’s a complicated situation. , and, you know, it’s not getting any better. We don’t have. We used to have set aside programs for farmland. , and that was to try to keep it out of development. And farmers got paid for not growing on that land, just letting it grow up. But they those types of programs have dried up, so there aren’t a lot of choices for farmers. , and small farmers can’t grow cattle and make any money. So that’s a whole nother that’s a whole nother issue.

Jeremiah: So but I think we should I think.

Jeremiah: We should, uh, ask the editors to have like, a, like, behind the scenes for our video call so that people could also hear the second half of this conversation.

Jeremiah: After we concluded. You can because this is good. I think you can submit.

 Mindy: That to him, and I will. I will say this, and then I’ll let you guys go unless you have something else. If you want to help with the curriculum, I’m a curriculum writer. That’s another job. I’m a Jill of many trades. I’ve written a curriculum for Iowa State on carpentry, and I’m not a carpenter, but I’m a vocational educator. So my my class I was talking about I taught gardening classes through AARP virtually for senior citizens, which was kind of interesting. But I’ve been in in ag teaching people for over 18 years. I’ve done it through YouTube. I was the brand for an online gardening magazine. I wrote all their blogs and articles, answered the questions, did their videos. So unfortunately I thought I would retire from that company. And somebody offered the owner some really nice money and he took it and they turned it into a cannabis growing site and didn’t want to keep me. So, you know, I was, you know, they still make money off the YouTube channel I created. But but, you know, , so if you all need any help, just reach out to me and or if you have any questions. , because again, our cultures, you know, we have some of the same issues. And, , I could speak for hours about urbanization. My master’s part of my master’s is in urban planning and environmental education. And, , when I, I, I wrote my thesis three times and then ended up not needing it. And I so did not want to write a thesis on this topic, but they talked me into writing my thesis on CAFOs and Tyson and particular because in Kentucky there’s a really a really bad situation and and CAFOs go in and they rip the farmer off and they create these huge manure piles on drainage ditches. And it’s just a mess. But unfortunately, Tyson’s got a lot of money and they just pack up their toys and go somewhere else. And so I’ve been all over the place. I do all sorts of stuff. So , and.

Jeremiah: I like it. Yeah. Yeah, I have that.

Jeremiah: I have that in my notes too. , yeah. It is something that, uh. Yeah. And then too, and when we have other time, you know, we can tell you sort of where some of our ideas are taking us now. , yeah. To I guess, just see if it makes sense. , and also to, like, I’m genuinely not just, like, plugging our articles, just, you know, to get more viewership. But if you didn’t mind, if you looked through our catalog, , you’d see that, uh, a lot of, , the things that we’ve written about so far, they’re, they’re not really in any linear progression. It’s sort of like whatever I’m inspired to write about. And so, like, they’re kind of all over the place. I think only after reading a lot of it do people get the sense of the full picture. But I’ve had a hard time historically zooming out far enough to actually make some sort of like, linear way to communicate.

Jeremiah: All these.

Jeremiah: Ideas, all these ideas. Because also, in my own experience of having the ideas hasn’t been linear either.

Jeremiah: Right?

Jeremiah: It’s never a straight line. It’s always like zigging and zagging and going back and forth. , so I do think like a curriculum would probably like not only help educate others on it, but it also might help, just like me, understand this whole thing that’s happening.

 Mindy: Right. Okay, well, I’ll look I mean, I’ll reach out to you all and tell you what I think, but I think, , you know, you’re going to have to, to kind of ponder, you know, who is your demographic? I work for with several businesses, and they want to market to everybody, and that’s great. When I wrote my first book, I wanted everybody to read it, but it doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. And it sounds like your all’s holistic approach is, is the younger generation not the older generation?

Jeremiah: I think so, yeah.

 Mindy: Because they’re you know, I’m the older generation, but I’ve always been this way. I had my dad worked for the Board of Health and my dad, you know, I trusted my dad. If my dad told me to do something, I would I would go and do it. And we had this particular year, we were having drought conditions and we had these little pockets of water in our creek, and we had a mosquito problem. And my dad, this this speaks of my age, but my dad had, uh, DDT tablets. So he sent me back to the creek. And I guess he never read Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring, but.

Jeremiah: .

 Mindy: So I, I did what my dad told me to do. And not thinking, I took my horse down to drink, and he drank. And that smer he developed throat cancer and had to be put down. And ever since then I’ve been I’ve got really bad allergies. So I’m like the swimmer allergic to chlorine and bromine. I’m the ag allergic to pollen, you know, that kind of thing. So I’ve always, after that experience have always been very careful. Any time I used any, any type of chemical and I choose not to, I use, , I use red balls and paint them with a sticky substance to capture insects so they don’t lay eggs in the apple trees. , versus spraying I because I don’t live there, I’d have to go over there every time we had a rain to re-apply with my approach. I don’t have to do that. And they just they think it’s an apple and they fly in and they lay their eggs and they never get out of the sticky stuff. So that’s awesome. So , but not everybody’s that way. But I’m in that generation that you just spray something and you end it and, and, you know, you go on with your life, but I don’t. I don’t follow that type of practice. So there aren’t, you know, I’m not a flower child, but I was around, you know , that type of error. But I think your younger generation would be, , the ones that would really grab a hold of this and run with it. Yeah.

Jeremiah: So. Yeah, we think so too.

Jeremiah: Awesome. Yeah. Well, this has been this has been awesome, Mindy. Yeah. Like super, super cool to meet you. And thank you for like, you know, just doing everything you’re doing, not just the, uh, not just the podcast stuff, but. Yeah. Thanks for just being a thoughtful person in.

Jeremiah: The right place.

 Mindy: I have this philosophy, and then I’ll let you all go, because I know you’re very busy, and we could speak for hours on this, but I do have a philosophy. I’m a grandmother now, and I just want to leave the world a little better, , for my children. And I’m just one person. But, yeah, I don’t ride on my laurels and just say I’m one person. I can’t make a difference and forget about it. , but, you know, I’ve, I have personally seen some crazy stuff that just makes me go, you know, that affects everybody. And unfortunately, I have I was invited to the University of Glasgow last July to do a presentation on my books, and I was had never been to a foreign country. I’ve been to Canada numerous times. It’s not a foreign country to me. Never flew, never went to a foreign country. Never been to that university, been to several universities to do a presentation to a group of people I didn’t know. And, , I was amazed at how clean that country was. I mean, you know, most people would be like, you know, the scenery and all this, I was amazed because the Ohio River, , runs between Kentucky and Indiana and and you know, that river is dirty and there’s trash and there’s dead bodies and a bunch of stuff. But we were staying off the the River Clyde, and it was so clean. They had ring buoys, like, every ten feet hanging off this, this simple wooden fence in case somebody fell in. You could just throw the ring. I mean, no cigarette butts on the ground in the city. It was crazy.

Jeremiah: They had.

 Mindy: Yeah, they had recycling bins. You see, I’m getting excited about this recycling bins in the city. And I took my recycling down to the recycling center yesterday, which that’s another. But anyway. But there were no bags of trash sitting by the recycling bin. People were actually walking up and sorting the recyclables in the bin. It was a miracle. We’re talking Glasgow, Edinburgh, you know, big cities and people were doing that. I was just so amazed. I mean, my husband’s taking pictures of, you know, the double decker buses and all that stuff. And I’m amazed at the you’re looking.

Jeremiah: At trash cans. Yeah.

 Mindy: I mean, you know, uh, I was just so I was like, looking on the ground going, where are the cigarette butts? They had outdoor seating at the restaurant, and you didn’t have trash everywhere, like in Louisville. And it was like, why? Why is there such a difference? And a gentleman where we stayed at, he said. That’s what happens when you came to a country that has one mind, and there they have a goal of of meeting the ESG. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but it’s like a ESG. It’s a like a 12 point.

Jack Novak : Environmental standard.

Jeremiah: Guideline.

 Mindy: I think it’s environmental, sustainable, governmental, and it’s where companies can qualify through the UN of being labeled a sustainable business. And so Scotland will Britain, Scotland, that whole part of the world is they have this goal of meeting all these standards by like 2035 or something. And some of those standards are like hiring minorities. , you know, reducing your carbon footprint. But the UN produced this, this docent. And but anyway, this gentleman was telling me we have one mindset here. You know, in North America, we have all sorts of mindsets. And everybody thinks they they have these rights and, and etc.. Yeah, that it was crazy different. My husband was like, I can’t believe you’re just in awe about that recycling bin. But I mean, I was I was just so amazed at how simple it was and how clean it was. And, you know, hopefully North America will have, you know, take some lessons from foreign countries and start having that one mind mindset where we, you know, realize what I do affects you and what you do affects me. And.

Jeremiah: Well, in.

Jeremiah: An election year, it’s probably the least likely to happen.

Jeremiah: Yeah, totally. We’re moving.

Jeremiah: We’re moving further away from that right now.

 Mindy: I, I totally, but we can hope, right? Right. We can hope and do our individual part and you know, so, , I had positive vibes when I came back because I thought, you know, there is a different way of doing this. , you know, we don’t have to. I mean, that whole country was just amazing to me. I mean, free health care, free schooling, free. I mean, it was just crazy. And I was just like, wow. You know, and this country is supposed to be backward. And I was like, you know, it was just a really eye opening experience to a different way of thinking. , but yeah, so but, well, I’m going to let you guys go. I look over your articles and you can contact me. I guess you would contact Mark about adding this other stuff if you choose to. , and then we’ll just go from there.

Jeremiah: Awesome, awesome.

Jeremiah: Thank you. Mindy.
 Mindy: No problem. Talk to you later. Bye bye. Have a good day.