Empowering Indigenous Conservation Protecting Borneo’s Forests with Jettie Word & Joe Lamb

Episode Overview

Episode Topic

In this episode of Timber Talks,” host Mindy welcomes Jettie Word, Executive Director of the Borneo Project, and Joe Lamb, its founder, for an in-depth discussion on forest conservation and indigenous land rights in Borneo. The conversation centers on the Borneo Project’s innovative initiatives aimed at protecting Borneo’s forests and supporting indigenous communities. Jettie and Joe highlight the evolution of conservation practices, emphasizing a shift from traditional exclusionary methods to community-led, sustainable approaches. They also explore the challenges posed by large-scale deforestation projects, such as mega dams and planted forests, and the importance of recognizing indigenous rights and knowledge in forest management.

Lessons You’ll Learn

Listeners will gain insights into the complexities of forest conservation, especially in tropical regions like Borneo. This episode sheds light on the importance of community-led initiatives in sustainable forestry and the challenges faced when integrating indigenous perspectives into conservation efforts. Jettie and Joe share valuable lessons on the importance of respecting indigenous land rights and the role of technology in modern conservation strategies. The discussion also covers the impact of global policies on local conservation efforts, providing a comprehensive understanding of the interconnectedness of environmental, social, and economic factors in sustainable forestry..

About Our Guest

Jettie Word is the Executive Director of the Borneo Project, an organization dedicated to conserving the forests of Borneo and supporting the rights of its indigenous communities. With over a decade of experience at the Borneo Project, Jettie has led several successful campaigns against deforestation and large-scale industrial projects. Joe Lamb, the founder of the Borneo Project, is a seasoned conservationist and arborist with over 30 years of experience in environmental advocacy. Together, they bring a wealth of knowledge and firsthand experience in sustainable forestry, emphasizing

Topics Covered

This episode covers various topics related to forest conservation and indigenous rights in Borneo. Key discussions include the evolution of conservation strategies from exclusionary practices to inclusive, community-led approaches; the impact of large-scale deforestation projects, such as mega dams and planted forests; and the use of technology in modern conservation efforts, including the role of satellite imagery and drones. Additionally, the episode delves into global policy influences, like the EU regulations on deforestation, and their effect on local conservation practices. Jettie and Joe also share best practices for working with indigenous communities to promote sustainable forest management and protect biodiversity.

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About the Guest: Joe Lamb or Jettie Word

Episode Transcript

Mindy: Welcome to another episode of Forestry and Arboriculture timber Talks, the podcast where we dive into the latest trends, innovations and insights in the world of forestry and agriculture. I’m your host, Mindy. Today we have two incredible guests joining us. We are honored to welcome Jettie Word. She is the executive director of Borneo Project, and Joe Lamb, the founder of the Borneo Project. Borneo Project is an organization dedicated to protecting the forest and indigenous communities of Borneo. Jettie and Joe bring a wealth of knowledge and experience and conservation and sustainable forestry. Welcome to the show, Jettie and Joe.

Jettie Word: Hello.Thanks for having us. Very honored.

 Mindy: No problem. You’ve been deeply involved in conservation for many years. Can you share how the approach to forest conservation and management has evolved since you first started the Borneo project?

Jettie Word: I think that the world of conservation has changed significantly, but I think that the Borneo project has largely had the same strategy since the beginning, and that is that we support indigenous led land rights campaigns and indigenous led forest protection. So we really understand that these projects won’t work unless they are led and directed by communities on the ground. You know that they’re owned by communities, they’re designed by communities. And in contrast, the conservation movement, especially in the US, but all over the world, traditionally was more oriented towards kicking people off of their land, calling them poachers and squatters on their own territories. And you’ve really seen a shift in that in the conservation world in the last couple of decades?

Joe Lamb: Yeah, we are proud to have, in some senses, been at the forefront of those changes that methods that we had from the very beginning of the project, which has been around for over 30 years, are methods that are now being adopted by much larger conservation organizations.

 Mindy: The Borneo Project has spearheaded numerous innovative initiatives. Can you provide some examples of recent projects or advancements that highlight your work and force conservation and community engagement?

Jettie Word: Sure. So the Borneo Project, since Joe founded the organization over 30 years ago, we’ve always been responding to what’s happening on the ground. So it’s really led by indigenous communities and indigenous leadership. And so in the last ten years or so, I’ve been at the project for ten years. And also just to note, we work in Malaysian Borneo in a state called Sarawak. So the island of Borneo is divided between Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei. And we work in Malaysian Borneo in a state called Sarawak. And in the last ten years or so since I’ve been there, we’ve really been focusing on issues regarding dams. So the construction of mega dams that would have displaced 20,000 people and flooded a huge area of forest. And a little known fact, tropical mega dams will release more greenhouse gasses per megawatt of energy produced than many coal fired plants. So they are not actually considered renewable energy in many circumstances. So that has been a big campaign. We’ve transitioned since we had a big victory against a huge mega dam called the Baram Dam, and we’ve been really supporting indigenous led projects for forest protection. And so one of our projects that has really supported that is called the Baram Heritage Survey.

Jettie Word: The bottom is a river. It’s a really long, free flowing river. No dams. Um, and so the area where we work is called Baram or the Baram River basin. And the bottom heritage Survey was really in support of these community led initiatives to protect their forests. What we did is we hired and trained people from the communities to collect ecological and social data. So they six communities participated in this project. We hired 2 to 4 people from each community. They were trained by ecologists. They cleared pathways, two kilometer pathways for two kilometer pathways in each community, and they walk them twice a year to collect data on animals. For almost two years, this was during Covid. So it was, you know, kind of threw a wrench into how we were managing the project, but it turned out to be really successful. They also collected information on hunting and fishing in their communities to really quantify how much they depend on protein from the forest and from their rivers. And they also interviewed all of their community members about.

Jattie Word : How.

Jettie Word: They use their land and resources and what they envision for the future of their communities. So this is a really huge tool and resource that communities can use as they are trying to establish their own protected areas, as they are trying to fight logging companies, and as they are trying to justify how they use the land, why it’s important to them, and honestly, why it’s important to the entire world to protect these forests, both in terms of biodiversity and that sort of richness, as well as for carbon and climate change.

 Mindy: Okay. In this, your project kind of reminds me what they’ve been doing in Africa, like the game reserves and hiring indigenous people to, to manage and, and monitor, I guess would be a good term to put that. So how has technology influenced your strategies and effectiveness in conserving Borneo’s forest compared to when you first began.

Jettie Word: Well, Joe, didn’t you used to send faxes or something when you.

Joe Lamb : Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the old days.

Joe Lamb: We were sending faxes. You know, I had a fax machine in my closet in my apartment. And when we first went to Borneo, not on the first trip, but we did a big mapping workshop there, like, roughly 25 years ago. And back then we were using these GPS units that were like 10 pounds, these really heavy, large things that we’d have to put on bamboo poles like stick up high in the air, as high as we could get above the forest canopy for it to record it. And now, of course, the technology has changed dramatically. And we have people out there using their like in the heritage study that Jerry was talking about, using iPhones to geo locate where the trees are, where they’re identifying the trees and the animals that are dependent upon the trees, and the map making has also changed dramatically. We were doing interesting map making in the very beginning, but the technology of it has improved dramatically over that time. And the indigenous knowledge of using that technology has also increased dramatically. The people there are teaching each other how to use it that have been for years now.

 Mindy: Drones?

Jettie Word: Yeah, I was about to chime in with a little bit about that. So one of the biggest issues right now, Sarawak and in the country of Malaysia, the biggest driver of deforestation that we see are called licenses for planted forests. So these planted forests are when companies go in and they convert a natural forest into fast growing timber species that are turned into cheap furniture. Sometimes they also have oil palm trees in there as well. Palm oil is a really big issue, But the main driver of deforestation right now in Malaysia is really these planted forests. And so one of our really important tasks at the moment is to document what is going on. A lot of this deforestation is sort of slipping under the radar because they’re really remote areas, and communities don’t understand exactly where it’s happening on their territory or what the long term plan is of these areas, or you know, what exactly their rights are when it comes to defending their land. So right now we are in the process of documenting what is happening. Are they clearing new forests to plant these mostly non-native species of Acacia and Eucalyptus? Or, you know, are these planted forests that have already been here for the last 10 to 20 years that they’re clearing out? And we’re also using a lot of satellite imagery from places like Global Forest Watch to be able to determine what’s happening in these places as well.

Jettie Word: And one really interesting thing that is important to mention is a lot of these planted forests and a lot and a lot of the logging concessions that people are protesting are all certified. So these are certified logging concessions or certified planted forests that have this stamp of approval as sustainable and green and ethical. There are two primary ways that these concessions can get certified in Sarawak. One is through the Malaysian Timber Certification Scheme and the other is through FSC for Forest Stewardship Council. But FSC has not yet certified any logging concessions in Sarawak. It’s all been certified under the Malaysian Timber Certification scheme. So a really huge, important part of our work right now is calling it out and saying, you know, in spite of all of these concessions being certified as sustainable and ethical, there are huge amounts of communities who are protesting and saying that they were not consulted, and they did not give their consent for these companies to log on their land. So there’s a really big discrepancy between what people think of certification in the global markets. You know, oh, this is certified. It must be ethical. It must be a green product. And the reality of what’s happening on the ground.

 Mindy: It reminds me of an egg. Organically grown produce, the greenwashing that is a problem, a big problem.

Joe Lamb: So I think it’s really important for forestry professionals around the world to realize that that certain planted forests, especially in tropical areas, should not be considered to be some kind of thing that is appropriate for for a carbon exchange, because the the the amount of carbon that’s lost in clearing even secondary forests is enormous. And the species diversity loss that comes from removing secondary forests and primary forests is enormous. One of the kind of astounding things that we discovered in the study that we did in the Baham Heritage area was that secondary forests are not species diversity deserts, actually, that they have really high diversity that’s been largely unrecognized. And sometimes big companies go in and say, well, if this area had been previously logged, it’s kind of, you know, it’s a wasteland anyway, so we might as well just clear it, put in a planted forest. But that’s not the case that there’s a lot of species diversity there. And if it’s allowed to regenerate naturally, it stores a lot more carbon and has a much higher return on species diversity globally.

 Mindy: Well, I think a big issue. Well, the greenwashing, but valuing diversity. You know, in our natural environment, we have the same thing, same issues and North America of single species plantings. One or just not valuing the land. Where I live, land has been eaten up for urban development. Like, you know, we have an unlimited amount, which we don’t. We have a limited amount. So it’s very sad to me when I see forests that have been forests for 50 years coming down to put an apartment building up or a farm being sold for either apartments or what I call mini malls, you know, the really big homes, because that’s land that’s being taken out of production. And it’s very difficult to get that back if we ever could get it back. So looking ahead, what emerging trends do you see having a significant impact on forest conservation and sustainable forestry practices in the coming years.

Jettie Word: I think there’s a lot going on now with the recognition that we need to protect forests if we’re going to have a chance in this fight against climate change. You know, these forests are incredibly important for protecting us against the worst of climate change. And that’s really being reflected in government policies, such as the fact that all logging concessions need to be certified right now in the state where we work. So, you know, you see these important policies in the right direction, like requiring certification. But on the other hand, you see that certification is not meeting its own standards in the slightest. And so, you know, I’m really hoping that there’s more light shed on these issues within the institution and the and the industries of forestry. History. There’s also a big law coming into place in the EU under the EU regulations on deforestation, which is having a big impact on many countries. And it basically states that products associated with deforestation are not going to be allowed to enter the EU, which is I really hope that that does put pressure on governments to do things differently. We can see within the Sarawak government that there are a lot of people who are trying to do the right thing and trying to transition into truly sustainable practices and ethical practices.

Jettie Word: But then there’s the old guard that’s also still in place that wants to do things the same way. And Sarawak experienced massive deforestation in the 90s and early 2000 and even beyond because of corruption and, you know, people profiting off of the extraction and communities not being able to do that much against it. But you do see a shift, and I hope that these international policies can really support that shift. And then another big thing that’s coming up are carbon markets and carbon credits. And this is an incredibly complex topic. The way that we see it rolling out in Sarawak is not very transparent. And the first of these projects are going to logging companies, the same logging companies that have been causing all of this deforestation and profiting off of this extraction over the last few decades. So the communities there and local civil society organizations are extremely skeptical that they’re going to turn around and suddenly do things in a better way. So, you know, that’ll be a very interesting development over the next few years.

 Mindy: Yes, I’m very familiar with what Europe is, is doing their goals and stuff. I’ve had several clients from Europe and interviewed several people about ESG. And I just really wish North America would jump on the bandwagon. But hopefully as things change and progress, powers it be in North America will see the value of, you know, being supportive and not making a market for stuff that you know, was clear cut and etc. but time will tell. So, you know, with the increasing focus on climate change and sustainability, how do you foresee forest practices evolving to address these global challenges?

Jettie Word: Sort of what I mentioned in the previous question. I think policies like the EDR have a really important place. I really hope that, you know, I haven’t seen any examples of carbon credit schemes that are really functioning in an optimal way. I think there’s been a lot of research done in the last year or two. That’s really exposing how these carbon markets are not functioning very well at all. So I hope that there’s a transition towards protecting these places, because that protection is valuable in itself towards really valuing the biodiversity and the people in these forests and all of the richness that they bring, and not just trying to change that into a monetary value for companies, but, you know, valuing it in itself.

 Mindy: So these, these, these companies that log, do they hire indigenous people or is it just outsiders that come in? So sometimes they do okay. Yeah.

Jettie Word: Sometimes it really depends on the operation as well. So planted forests need more workers. So typically they will have some people from the local communities involved, timber companies and oil palm plantations and these timber plantations often have a huge amount of employees from other countries as well. They often have to import workers from Indonesia. A lot of them are from Indonesia, Bangladesh as well. So in the communities where we ran the bottom heritage survey, those six villages, there was not a single person working for the timber company. Every single one of these people who participated in the interviews depend on rice, you know, subsistence farming, hunting and fishing. Everyone except one person who has a local store. So, you know, it’s the timber industry isn’t necessarily a huge provider of jobs in the area where we work.

Joe Lamb: I just like to also add to that, that what the indigenous people want in the area is not an absence of development. They want a kind of development, but they and they’re not against logging in some senses, you know against forestry. They just want it to be done in such a way that completely respects their rights and that preserves the forest. And all of that is possible. And the way that they the way that they want it is really what is best for the planet, because that technique is what preserves the most carbon and the most species diversity. And so there can be a very profitable, you know, forestry industry in tropical areas that can last in perpetuity if it’s done carefully, but largely by respecting land rights for indigenous peoples, is the is the key that the that really is at the bottom of that. I mean, even the United Nations and the Ford Foundation and the IPCC people, they all you know, they’re all in agreement that recognizing land rights for indigenous peoples in the tropical forested areas is key to preserving species diversity and to stopping and to mitigating climate change.

 Mindy: Well, I was just curious. I had an interview with a gentleman who works in British Columbia, and he works globally, but tries to provide suggestions for forest management. That isn’t just the dollar. And he was talking about how when he gets contacted, one of the big questions from the indigenous population is how many jobs are we going to lose, you know, if we stop logging or. And so I was just curious if there was that kind of conflict. Yeah, there’s not.

Jettie Word: Going to lose many jobs. And I mean, they communities are not all they don’t all think the same thing. Right? In our communities, people don’t all have the same opinions and needs and and desires. And some communities are totally okay with logging. Some are completely against logging and a lot are kind of in between. But the jobs in the area that aren’t just subsistence farming and hunting are, you know, small agricultural projects that our wider community is trying to start. You know, these more renewable and these safer practices, coffee and banana and, you know, agroforestry and things like that that are not coming from the government necessarily. And they’re definitely not coming from timber companies.

 Mindy: What advice would you give to conservationists and forest professionals who want to stay ahead of future changes and advancements in the industry?

Jettie Word: I mean, I think it’s just important to be on the ground and spend a lot of time in these communities. If you’re talking about all of these advancements as well, I think it’s visiting places all around the world that are doing really incredible things. There’s tons of projects everywhere that are extremely innovative and beneficial for communities and the forests. Forest. So no, researching all of the new things that are happening. Visiting these places is really important.

Joe Lamb : And recognizing.

Joe Lamb: The conservation value of secondary forests. And, you know, just to underline once again what Jerry said, recognizing that there’s human dimensions to all of this and make sure that attention is paid to the human dimensions of the people living in the forests.

 Mindy: Very interesting. As you can, I have indigenous, I’m Native American, so I can completely. I tried to stay neutral, but I completely understand, um, some of those issues. Mhm. Um, for our listeners involved in forestry and conservation, what are some common challenges that they might face when integrating sustainable practices and how can they overcome them?

Jettie Word: I think a lot of challenges arise when projects are not designed by the community. There’s always tons of projects or tons of issues and challenges that come up with any project, but there’s a lot more failure when there’s no ownership on behalf of the community. So, you know, communities need to be involved from the very beginning, including deciding what the project is and how it’s designed and managed. And basically every step of the way they should be the ones answering the questions and figuring things out because they’re the experts when it comes to their land and their communities.

 Mindy: Yeah, that’s very much the same in AG, you know, and the farmer knows his land. But so do you all have any type of youth organization? I’m assuming the people that cut the trail were monitoring were adults. So do you all have like a plan to continue this with the next generation? Well, the.

Jettie Word: The main organization that we work with on the ground, they’re called Save Rivers. They are a multi-generational nonprofit, but there’s a lot of younger folks involved. They’re an incredible organization. They’ve really evolved a lot in the last few years, and they also have a youth organization associated with them.

 Mindy: Because I used to, I don’t know, are you all familiar with Medicine Man? No. John Connery. I when I taught environmental science, essentially it was a scientist who was in a tropical rainforest, and he stopped communicating with his university. So a doctor was sent and he hadn’t found the cure for cancer. And it had to do with orchids and this orchid and ant relationship. And there was logging involved, and the logging company tried to burn the forest down and but I showed that show, that movie to my kids to, you know, we debated and discussed about the rights of indigenous people, the rights of medical research. You know, that conflict that we have a lot of times. So I was just curious if you all were working on the next generation to keep this program going. Can you share some best practices for efficiently working with indigenous communities to protect and manage forest?

Jettie Word: I think a really important thing, which is very related to what I was saying earlier, is listening, you know, like actually listening, not just having a token conversation. That’s what the logging companies do. You know, they go in, they talk at the people, and then they check off their box and say, okay, these people were consulted. We’re all good now. But actually taking the time to speak with people and listen to people in a culturally appropriate way as well.

 Mindy: Okay. So when these logging companies come in to discuss with the indigenous population. They don’t have any legal counsel to protect them or rarely.

Jettie Word: I mean, when it escalates, sometimes lawyers get involved, but a lot of the time consultants will just enter the community. They, you know, the people where we work in Sarawak are extremely welcoming, kind people. You know, culturally, they are very welcoming and gracious. And so they’re not going to their immediate reaction isn’t to turn away people. And it’s not to seek conflict with these logging companies. But a lot of the time these consultants will come and, you know, do a PowerPoint presentation that maybe, you know, a couple people sort of understand and the they’re sort of talking at the people and then they say, okay, we got their consent to do this, logging on their land when really the the village hasn’t really understood why they’re there, what they’re doing and what they’re saying. So really making sure that there is more understanding of what’s going on and letting these meetings take as long as they take. You know, sometimes they last until 3 or 4 in the morning, but letting it roll out in a way that is appropriate for them is the most important.

 Mindy: So when this project started, was it started because somebody felt that the indigenous population wasn’t being treated fairly? Or was it because of watching the biodiversity disappear or so what was really the spearheading of this program?

Joe Lamb: So when I founded the project, you know, over 30 years ago, I was very concerned about the rainforest in Borneo coming down. So it was basically about trees. I make my living as an arborist is how I am, how I make my living. I have a small company that prunes trees. And when I first went there to Borneo, uh, the project changed immediately from it just being about trees to it being about people and trees, and how the two were kind of indistinguishable that the forest and the forest people, their lives are so intertwined that they’re thinking about them separately is really, uh, doing a disservice to both. So, there was a very radical, very quick transition from it being about just trees and biodiversity to it being about the people living in the forest and their relationship to that and the and the larger complexity, the, the whole sort of ecosystem of human interactions and forests simultaneously.

Jettie Word: And, but at the time, it was a call from communities. Yeah.

Joe Lamb : That’s true.

Jettie Word: Communities were asking for international observers and international witnesses when there were pretty widespread logging blockades against timber companies in the early 90s. Yeah. So they wanted international witnesses to be there as a form of security. Yeah.

Joe Lamb: When I first went there, they were. The government was trying to prevent people from going upriver where the logging was taking place. They really didn’t want it witnessed. And that was our goal, really was at the very beginning of the project, was just to witness and to and to bring that message out to the larger world, because more logs came out of Borneo in the 80s and 90s than out of all of Africa and South America combined. And that was off of the radar in America. Most people in the radar. Most people in America couldn’t pick Borneo off of a map. It had no idea where it was. And yet the logging there was just, you know, devastation. Just this huge, enormous thing hard to wrap your mind around.

 Mindy: Was there ever, you know, 30 years ago, was there ever any type of compensation for the damage that was caused or, you know, there.

Joe Lamb: Has always been some form of compensation, and it’s never been enough, anywhere near enough that the people who were being located from the dams that already exist are put into these stalinesque apartment like buildings out in the out in the forest and places where there where there the land around them is really degraded and they, you know, and that’s considered compensation. Yeah. The compensation is never, never, never equal to the was lost.

 Mindy: I was just curious if it was kind of in parallel with what happened in North America, with the indigenous populations, you know, relocation etc..

Jettie Word: Yeah. Well, real relocation, you know, removing people from their land is, uh, an extremely violent and traumatic thing. And of course, in the US, the history is atrocious. I mean, it’s massive genocide.

Jattie Word : In.

Jettie Word: Sarawak, it’s not quite the same. A lot of communities, most communities still have access to their ancestral territories, but a lot of those territories have been significantly impacted by logging. There are communities who have been completely kicked off of their land for these large development projects, like the mega dams that they’ve already built. That’s more recent in the last couple decades.

 Mindy: What practical tips can you offer to professionals looking to enhance their efforts in forest conservation and sustainable management in their daily work?

Jettie Word: I think everyone needs to spend six months to a year in rural communities where these projects are taking place to really understand what’s going on.

Jattie Word : Okay, so.

 Mindy: Experience boots on the ground.

Jettie Word: Experience and really just understand the cultural context and all of the, you know, these are really complicated issues. And so to be Effective. You really need to understand the communities and and what the issues are.

 Mindy: Would you suggest maybe in the future in forestry programs and stuff? Would you suggest that maybe universities could offer classes on cultural diversity or something like that, to help train forestry professionals for this complex issue? Because I know in North America, you know, forestry program is trees and science, and it really leaves the human element out of the picture. So do you think that would be something that would be a positive change?

Jattie Word : Yeah, I.

Jettie Word: I think that would definitely be a positive change, not just.

Jattie Word : On.

Jettie Word: Culture but also on the history of colonialism, whether that’s in the Americas or elsewhere in the world and how that’s impacted different populations.

Joe Lamb: I think it’s a great idea, and I think I’d like to draw a line once again under what Gerry just said, you know, expand it, expand it some. And if you could have those classes taught by indigenous people.

 Mindy: All right. Because I can, I can see the definite need of that type of thing for somebody who wants to be respectful, truly respectful of the environment. I mean, there’s the Peace Corps. It’s available for people who would want to explore something like that. But, you know, we have indigenous people in North America that have very similar problems that you described that’s going on. Thank you so much, Jettie and Joe, for sharing your valuable insights and expertise with us today. It’s been an enlightening discussion, and I’m sure our listeners have gained a lot from it. For those who want to learn more about the Borneo Project and their work, be sure to visit the website at Borneo Project.org. Don’t forget to subscribe to forestry and Horticulture Timber Talks for more episodes featuring experts in the field. Until next time, take care and keep our forests thriving.