Navigating the Future of Forestry Sharon Durdant-Hollamby on Innovation and Inclusivity

Episode Overview

Episode Topic

In this episode of Timber Talks host Mindy sits down with Sharon Durdant-Hollamby, a distinguished figure in the arboriculture industry. As the immediate past president of the Institute of Chartered Foresters and director of Sharon Hopgood Associates Limited, Sharon shares her extensive experience and unique perspectives on the evolving field of arboriculture. The discussion delves into the increasing role of technology in arboriculture, the importance of sustainability in urban forestry, and the challenges and opportunities facing women in traditionally male-dominated fields. Sharon also shares her innovative approaches to community engagement and sustainable forestry practices, providing listeners with a comprehensive look at the current state and future of arboriculture..

Lessons You’ll Learn

Listeners will gain valuable insights into how the field of arboriculture is evolving with advancements in technology and the growing focus on sustainability. Sharon discusses the importance of integrating arboriculture into city planning and shares best practices for managing urban forests. You’ll learn about the challenges faced by women in arboriculture and forestry and the importance of advocating for inclusivity in these fields. Additionally, Sharon shares practical advice on using innovative techniques and community engagement to promote sustainable forestry practices. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in forestry, sustainability, and the vital role of arboriculture in urban environments.

About Our Guest

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby is a chartered arborist with a wealth of experience spanning governance, the private and public sectors, and business development. She is known for her creative problem-solving and innovative thinking, collaborating effectively within and beyond her field. Sharon has served as a chair and trustee, is skilled in mediation, and is adept at managing challenging changes. She was honored as an Honorary Fellow of Myerscough College in July 2023 for her significant contributions to agriculture and forestry. In addition to her consulting work, Sharon hosts her own podcast, “Tree Lady Talks,” and shares her knowledge through her YouTube channel. Her passion for arboriculture and commitment to sustainability make her a compelling voice in the industry.

Please check out Sharon Durdant-Hollamby’s podcast and YouTube channel:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TreeLadyTalks
Podcast: https://treeladytalks.buzzsprout.com/

Topics Covered

This episode covers a wide range of topics central to the field of arboriculture and forestry. Sharon and Mindy discuss the evolution of arboriculture over the past decade, including the increased recognition of the profession and its growing importance in urban planning. They explore the role of technology in modern arboriculture, from tree radar to AI and satellite imagery, and discuss how these advancements are shaping the future of the industry. The conversation also touches on the challenges faced by women in arboriculture and the steps needed to foster a more inclusive environment. Finally, they delve into best practices for urban forestry management and innovative approaches to sustainability, highlighting the importance of community involvement and the responsible use of natural resources.

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About the Guest: Sharon Durdant-Hollamby

Episode Transcript

Mindy: Welcome to another episode of Forestry and Arboriculture timber talks, the podcast where we dive into the latest trends, innovations and insights in the world of forestry and arboriculture. I’m your host, Mindy, and today we have a distinguished guest with us. We are thrilled to welcome Sharon Durdant-Hollamby-Hollamby, , immediate past president of Institute of Chartered Foresters and the director of Sharon Hosgood Associates Limited. She also has her own podcast, Tree Lady Talks, and her YouTube channel is also at Tree Lady Talks. So don’t forget to check those out. Sharon is a chartered Arborist with extensive experience in governance, the private sector, the public sector and business development. Known for creative thinking and problem solving. She collaborates well within and outside her field. She is also an experienced public speaker, podcaster and presenter both locally and internationally. Additionally, she has served as a chair and trustee and is skilled in mediation and managing challenging changes. As an innovator and detailed technical analyst, she was honored as an Honorary Fellow of Myerscough College in July 2023 for her contributions to agriculture and forestry. Sharon brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to our discussion today. Welcome to the show, Sharon. Wow. Yeah, it’s just me.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Really, Mindy. It’s just Sharon.

Mindy: All right, all right. In fact.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: I don’t know about you, but I call myself. I just say, hey, it’s Sharon, the tree lady. It’s nice and easy and nice and friendly.

Mindy: Yeah, I am kind of a Jill of many trades, so,  yeah, you would be. I take on projects that people are. Or you can do that. I was like, sure, no problem.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Yeah, yeah, that’s the way to be.

Mindy: Yes. , I very seldom look back off of the challenge, so, , but that’s what I’m known for. So sharing. You’ve been a prominent figure in the arboriculture industry for many years. Can you share with us how the approach to arboriculture has evolved over the past decade.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Over the past decade? That’s a really good question. Well, if we just go back ten years, of course, Mindy, I can go back much longer than that. But I think that we were just really beginning to feel truly that we were professional or recognized as being professional. And we know that were highly qualified, highly trained, highly knowledgeable and highly skilled. But there was a sort of lag behind other professions and the general public really appreciated that. We’re not just folk stuffing the trees, you know, we’ve got a real breadth of knowledge as well as folks up in the trees are also brilliant. But it’s taken a while for other professionals to recognize the importance and complexity of what we do. And in the UK, you know, I think we’re getting there. In fact, in many situations I say we are there. So that’s one about perception. I also have noticed that internationally, and certainly in the UK, there is a greater understanding and appreciation of trees by the general public, , and an increasingly mobilized sort of general public, active, trying to retain trees, plant trees. So there’s a lot more community focused, , rather than trees being seen as a problem because, I mean, I can go back, as I said earlier, sort of ten, 20 years when I was a municipality officer, where it was all about I like trees, but, you know, they’re causing a nuisance. So there’s that wider understanding by the public, wider understanding by other professionals. And I just think that we’ve got smarter in every sense of the word, really. We’ve got great technology now, which is constantly evolving, helping us to do and importantly, communicate our daily work. I just think this is a really great time for arboriculture. Don’t you, Mindy?

Mindy: When I started my career 100 years ago, it was, and it is still challenging to me to some extent, that agriculture was viewed then and in some aspects viewed as a dirty occupation. If you couldn’t do anything else, you were a farmer or stuff like that. And especially females in a male dominated field you have. That has been my experience. You have that additional challenge I had. There’s an organization called FFA in North America, and it stands for Future Farmers of America. And I was at an event with my children, and we were around this pool and I saw this, this older guy walk past and he had an FFA shirt on. So of course I jumped up and was like, oh, you know, is your is your son or daughter in FFA? And he kind of looked at me when I said that the daughter and he said, oh, my son is. And he said, oh, is your son in FFA? And I went, no. And he kind of looked at me and he said, well, how do you know FFA? I said, Because I’m a, I teach ag.

Mindy: I’m, I’m the person that starts the FFA at the school and, and teaches kids, you know, how to judge and things like that. And the man just looked at me, you know, you’ve never met a female AG, have you? And he just kind of, you know, turned his head. And I still get that today. Wow. I feel it’s better. I was one of two females that graduated. I graduated from Purdue. So I do see that the times are changing. I’m just in that aspect. I wish they would speed up a little bit. Yeah, but I do see in North America we are quite slow in adopting a lot of stuff, but I am seeing some changes as far as valuing the natural landscape, valuing trees. I actually got contacted by another business about doing, uh, financial report on the dollars and cents of a forest and not not how much is that worth it? It was, you know, the entire ecosystem to try to kind of show people the true value beyond the trees.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: I totally agree. Yeah, I agree with Mindy. And this whole ecosystem services measuring which started in the states didn’t it, with Davey Tree Care with the I tree which is used internationally and I’ve certainly used it in the UK. But , can I go back to your point about being a woman? See, I’ve started to interview you now. This isn’t any good, isn’t it? Ha ha ha. I had an interview.

Mindy: Each other. I was just going to say, , but I did see something that doesn’t really have anything about the female, but we can go back to the female. I was interviewing a gentleman, and he was telling me that there are physicians now writing scripts for forced exposure, and I thought that was in the area I lived. There was a gentleman from the 1930s that had that done, and that they’re actually developing spas where you would have a physician that would write you a script for so much time out in the forest because of all the the health benefits to hans that the forest provides. So. But I see that changing quicker than the female thing. So we’ll go into the female thing. So go ahead.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Well actually I want to go back to the forest prescriptions. That’s something that’s starting here in the UK. , of course it started in Japan didn’t it, with forest bathing. But there is a real movement here with , there’s a great organization called NHS forest. So the NHS is our National Health Service here in the UK, and this is a non-governmental organization that I’ve worked with in the past that just have the best guidelines and really trying to get clinicians to really prescribe just being outdoors, because the science is there, the science is overwhelming. Get people outside with each other in a woodland or a garden environment. There are so many multiple benefits, aren’t there? There’s physical activity, there’s getting a bit of getting a bit dirty and feeding your gut biome, which helps your brain. There’s all that communication, but oh, I could go on and on about that, but about being a woman, I would say I think we’re pretty similar actually in the UK to North America, in that there’s about 10 or 11% of arboriculturalist or arborists are women. And it’s surprising actually.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Of those 10%, how many of us actually end up being quite prominent? , so I was the first, , president of the institute who was also an arboriculturalist as well, who was a woman. , and so, I mean, I’ve never worked on the tools, to be honest. Mindy. I mean, I’m scared of heights and I’m really clumsy, so I was. I’ve sort of gone into it through being what we call a tree officer over here, but, , yeah, it’s something that we really need to encourage more women. And and here in the UK, the Arboricultural Association have a brilliant scheme called Women in Arboriculture for women who are on the tools, who are tree officers or consultants to really come together and talk about what’s working, what isn’t working. Because one of the things is, , some of the clothing, the protective clothing is just too big and you’re sort of flopping around in this big yellow jacket, or the chainsaw trousers are too big and we’re making progress. How is it in the States for, like, clothing for women?

Mindy: And another client? I used to do what they call teach the or train the trainer, and it was for a company that dealt with electricians and they part of their program. I was the educator and part of the program was talking about the injuries that women suffered when the clothing didn’t fit, the boots didn’t fit, the gloves didn’t fit, you know, that type of thing at the time. Even undergarments for women, you don’t want to wear polyester if you’re an electrician. And so they had had a terrible story about a woman who wore an under her bra, had a wire in it, and. Yeah, I won’t go into detail, but it was a really bad day for her that day. Clothing manufacturers have changed. They you now have. They don’t market them as women’s gloves, but smaller sized gloves. Smaller sized boots, you know. Et cetera. Et cetera. To tailor to females who are going into the electrical field. So I see some of those kinds of changes. I just like the people boots on the ground, that type of people in the outdoor environment, whether it’s ag forestry, we’re still, you know, have that conception of when you think of a forester, you think of a man. But it takes time to change.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: And I think also, Mindy, this is what you’re doing is really, really good with the podcast and putting on YouTube. And I think we have to be visible. We have to be seen as prominent women in our field so that other women can go, oh yeah, I could have a go at that. And I’m not six foot tall and particularly sort of burly and strong. , so it’s just we need to break down barriers of perception, don’t we? And show that and really include everybody make it a totally inclusive profession. Absolutely everybody.

Mindy: You know, , since I went to school 100 years ago. You know, there’s no profession that I feel is not a profession. And unfortunately, in forestry in North America has not really been viewed as a profession. Neither has any. You know, I can think of some other ones, but, you know, they were more sort of marketed to kids as more of like a trade type thing. And I do see some changes in that. I do see like schools offering like environmental education and get kids outside and get them exposed trees and stuff like that. But it’s like anything else. It’s very slow. And, , you know, it just kind of a scary place now too. And, and so people are afraid to go outside, so.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Oh, that’s so, so terrible, isn’t it? I mean, one of the things that we’re trying to do here is just one school. If everybody who worked in forestry or arboriculture, went to just one school and said, hey, this is a job. It’s a really great one. Have you thought about it? You know, go and speak at assembly. That’s something very simple that can just spark something in someone’s mind. But it makes me really sad to hear you say, you know, the world is a scary place. Well, you know, yes, there’s always something to be frightened of, but we’ve got to go out and play. And I had the privilege of interviewing Nadine Ogle, who is now in Ontario, who’s produced this absolutely brilliant book which is out now called gosh, I can’t remember the title. It’s something like Our Nature, Our Cities, but actually I interviewed her a few weeks ago, but it’s all about this.

Mindy: I was outside all the time. I mean, I had horses and everything. I was raised on a farm, and , when I started my teaching career, I was amazed, you know, we’re going to go outside, you Yes. And just kind of the. Of course, I taught in the inner city, too. That could have been another reason. My kids were kind of back off about going outside, but yeah, I just, you know, I tell my kids growing up, you’ve got to eat a ton of dirt to be healthy. So go outside. You need your vitamin D, go outside. Uh, we see all sorts of negative stuff on TV about going outside. Unfortunately.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: So do you. Okay. Because we don’t so much here, and we’ve evolved to be outside. Right. You know, you know, we are han beings. We’ve evolved and we evolved to walk and be active and to be outside and move and get a bit dirty. And then we reflect upon why is it that there’s so much mental health issues? , so, so much poor health and why our general well-being is declining and why there’s substance abuse, etc.. Because we’re not living how we’ve evolved to live. We’ve got all this technology now, but it’s it doesn’t mean that we’ve changed just han beings. So good on you. Get people out there.

Mindy: Well, I see kind of that, you know, there’s always going to be that population that holds us that I can gradually see more. You know, I’ve, I have another client that I’m doing some work for. And they decided they were going to be a nomadic family. I mean, you know, they’re in Europe and they’re living the dream with their family and, and you know, that’s actually I mean, it’s not a new concept to me, but, you know, I see more of that choice that people are making. , and then, you know, I, I’m even actually seeing through social media things like Wild Gym over in North America that instead of going to a building with weights and everything. Yeah. Go outside and do your workout. So, you know, I, I see changes. I just wish we hadn’t gotten to where we are now. I wish we had stayed where we had been. Well, yeah. And change is hard. It’s it’s hard to get people to embrace change or embrace the way things used to be. But you know, Sardo or. Let’s see. What is it? Yeah. Sourdough bread. You know, that’s the thing from the past that’s, you know, I can’t turn on social media without seeing I. As a matter of fact, this morning I saw a country singer showing off her sourdough starter, and she was going to bake some bread. And I was like, you know, okay, that’s that’s a little different, but, , very successful country singers. So I was really kind of taken back, but, .

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: So we yeah, we were so into sourdough starters in lockdown. It’s what everybody was proudly showing off, you know? So, no, it’s good to hear about these things.

Mindy: Yeah. I just, you know, I’m always looking for the positive and and I’m always trying to get women into nontraditional roles because that’s how I roll. I’m, you know.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Yeah, obviously glass ceiling.

Mindy: And let’s just go on.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Absolutely. In my paid work. , so I’m a consultant and I work mainly for construction clients. So a lot of my work is advising developers and going on large construction sites in London, which is where I have most of my client base, and actually working with the guys on sites, making sure that we are looking after the trees properly and dealing with really technical issues to do with tree roots and foundations and sewers and new surfaces, etc.. So there I really am. Well, actually, Mindy, to go back to your first question, going back ten years, there weren’t many women on construction sites. I’m talking about really organized, highly professional construction sites. Now I go on site and I’m beginning to see my first female assistant site managers, and it’s quite normal now to see the professional team on a construction site. To have probably 20% of those being are women who are training just lovely, friendly women. You know, just just thinking, I’m going to have a career in construction and engineers and ecologists and architects. And so when I’m attending a design team meeting for development, half the team will be women. Wow. Yeah. Half there won’t be. I’ll be the only arboriculturalist. But there will be you know, civil engineers, structural engineers, architects, electrical engineers, construction managers, planners. Yeah, but half are women now, and that’s normal. But it wasn’t normal ten years ago, so, . Yeah. It’s good. I mean, I can go back. You say you could go back 100 years? Pretty much. I can too. And I remember in the late 80s when I worked for a municipality and, uh, going out on site, I was all about, you know, protecting trees, advising on tree works, etc.. And people often say, would you like me to carry your clipboard or I’m waiting for the man to come? Or are you his secretary? All of that you can imagine? I never get that now, but some of that is age, isn’t it? Do you find, . I’m 57, so I’m not going to ask you age.

Mindy: In some ways it has. I’m very impatient when it comes to those. Those changes. I didn’t have a role model. I didn’t have any. You know, I decided I was going to do this. As a matter of fact, , when I was in high school, girls took home, ec, boys took shop. Oh. Same here. We had an egg program. So I went to my counselor and I said I wanted to take egg. And she said, Mindy, you can’t take egg because girls take home ec boys take them. And I was, I was the, the my grandfather used to say I was always the grandchild that asked why I just why you know. Does it make sense?

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Of course.

Mindy: So I asked why. It’s just the way it is. Why is it that way? Because it doesn’t make any sense to me. So yeah, he did that. My freshman year, you know, all the way through my senior year when my junior year, I go in to set up my schedule and my counselor sees me and she goes, Mindy, you can get an A, and I was actually kind of taken back. And somebody, somebody parrot on my parents, , had sued the state of Indiana and they found it unconstitutional to keep girls out of egg. So I was the first female in the egg department at my high school. And it was really funny because I went to a rural school and I walked in the classroom and, you know, I’d been out in the hallway and conversed with these young men that I was going to have class with. And as soon as I walk in and the class starts, the teacher says, now, boys, we’re going to have to clean up the language, because we got a lady. And I was actually looking around, who are you talking to? You know, one of the guys. So I, I’m just one of those just impatient. I, I want, I want everybody to have the opportunity to participate and explore their passion and I won’t go into it, but I don’t believe the reason certain people have been denied that opportunity is based on the reason they give.

Mindy: And it’s just not logical to me. The reason. But as I’ve gotten older, it has gotten better because I’m not that young person trying to, you know, graduate with honors. You know, I’ve got all these credentials and I’m trying to get in, you know, it was I didn’t really have a really good experience starting out in my career. But the more I stood up for myself, the more you know that type of thing. I always say that the good old boys wouldn’t let me in. And then I had a breakthrough job and I, I just learned a lot of how to handle those situations. Because sitting there asking why, you know, or what can I do? Or, you know, I had one situation and I said, you know, I would have this job if I could change one thing, but I’m not going to change it. I’m not going to do it. If I was, if my name was Mark and I would have this job hands down. But I’m not Mark, I’m Mindy. And so but that’s that was my experience in North America. It was just very kind of challenging. But having said that, I grew a lot from it, and I learned a lot from it, and I learned whether I was treated as an equal or not, I was an equal.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Absolutely. Well, my story is very, very similar to yours. So when I was 14 and we chose what we were going to study, we chose what we called our options. I wanted to do technical drawing, and I was told I couldn’t do technical drawing because I was a girl. So me being me, I stormed into the headmaster’s office and said, why can’t I do technical drawing? He said, because you’re a girl. And I said, just like you, Mindy. Why? Why? And I did end up doing it. It turned out to be jolly useful. , so I had the same experience, and I’ve had a very similar path to you. But yeah, here we are. Here we are on a podcast. It’s made us.

Mindy: Very strong in our what we are, what we want to do. I have one of my granddaughters, loves construction sites and I made a point. There was only one female on this construction site, but we were talking. I had written some little carpentry curriculum for another job. But anyway, I was in some construction curricula and I was talking to her about the boom. And she’ll be four in like three days. So I told her, you can be whatever you want to be.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Absolutely.

Mindy: Her middle name is Rosie. And so I always think of Rosie the Riveter. Yeah. One War two. And it was, you know, the sky’s the limit, girl. You just have to do the work. Just. Yes. You know, just because of who you are doesn’t define you.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: And actually, I want to speak to that more. Please, Mindy. I want to say to women out there who are thinking about working in a non traditionally female profession outdoors with a borough culture, as well as working hard. Be yourself. Don’t try and be like a man. Be authentically you. However you identify. Don’t try and think, well, I’ve got to be like this. I’ve got to. You will fail. You’ve come on this earth. Ladies who are listening to be you. Don’t let that. Don’t let anybody else tell you how to behave. Just work hard and do well You have to.

Mindy: You have to work hard and you have to be. You have to believe in yourself.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: I do think so. But we don’t have to change who we are now, trying to conform to a stereotype of what an arborist is and how they look and how they behave. You have to be you, right?

Mindy: And you know what I have found? I’m so used to the shock factor now, but I actually kind of laugh at it when I still get it today, but I wasn’t going to change. That’s the direction it’s going to go. And, you know, it’s either you like it or you don’t. But you know, that’s who I am. That’s what I want to do. And secretarial work was not going to work for me, so. Oh gosh.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: No absolutely not..

Mindy: It’s kind of a family joke. But make it really short and sweet. I had an aunt that was going to secretarial school. Her dad didn’t like the grades, so she came home and he threw her out of the house and told her never to come back. And the circus happened to be in town. So she joined the circus and became the tattooed woman. I mean, I still laugh about that. I mean, it’s brilliant.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: It’s brilliant.

Mindy: So I was not meant to go to secretarial school? No. So your company, Sharon Hosgood associates, is known for integrating innovative methods in agricultural consultancy. Could you provide some examples of the cutting edge techniques or technologies you’ve developed or adopted?

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Yes. Well, for a long time, not so much lately, but I worked with a piece of equipment which started off in the States, actually, tree radar, which is a ground penetrating radar which specializes in scanning tree roots. And it works by picking up the live roots because they have a central core of water. And so that’s a really, really good piece of kit. It’s really complicated. And it takes a lot of training and analysis. But that was a fascinating way. And I worked very intensively with that for ten years. And a former employee of mine now has that machine and he’s taking it forward. But so that was a really good way to understand where the tree was actually rooting. And by understanding that, how could you put a building near there or perhaps you couldn’t, or how far is that ancient tree actually rooting? You know, for example, in the UK we’re blessed. We have so many wonderful ancient and veteran trees, some of which are over a thousand years old. And just to understand the extent of their root system being, , well, I’ve got to go to feet now, haven’t I? 60ft, you know, radius plus So that’s that’s one of the sort of technologies that I use for a long time. , but I’m also very keen to look at community as well and how the community can get involved through development, albeit through planting, but getting children on building sites safely and an organized way to carry out some tree planting and to speak to them about that and also to hear what the community say.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: , and also really to just try and join up the dots. I mean, one of the oldest things in the world that I’m really advocating, which people have forgotten. Imagine you’ve got a development and you’ve got 50 trees before the development. Maybe, maybe 20 have to go. You’ve worked really hard with the team and you’ve kept the best ones, and it’s inevitable that some will need to go and then you’re going to plant another 50. So there’ll be more in the end. But this seems to. It seems to be forgotten that when you take those 20 trees out that they are timber. And that’s a really useful resource. And with the message to keep carbon back on site and the sustainable story of that. I’m a great advocate of thinking about how can we use those trees back on the site at the very cheapest, simplest level, simply use the woodchip for landscaping. Next stage up, make habitat piles with small logs for insects, etc. next stage up, make some benches. , but one of my favorite projects is where we engaged an artist to work with local school children and actually create some beautiful sculptures in the classroom out of some trees, and then you put them back as part of art.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: So we call it the circular Economy and really just trying. So I think reminding people that there’s a resource there. We need as arborists often really fighting the corner for trees, aren’t we? There are so many other competing issues to do with land and to do with money and to do with messaging. So one of my top tips is name that tree. Let’s go back to this site of 50 trees. There might be a really fantastic oak, for example. That is the best tree on site. Give it a nickname. Do you know what I mean by nickname? And you know, give it a name. And then when you’re at a meeting with all the architects and everybody I mentioned and you say, well, you know, we can’t do that very well in the streets. Actually, you’re really good at naming trees, aren’t you? , so I’ve interviewed a lot of American , national , wildlife authors, but you know what I mean. You give a tree a name and then it’s like a personality. It has more power. So that’s something else. But on the whole, I’m about, as we all are, trying to help my clients, but do the best for nature, the best for trees at the same time. And it’s not easy. And it doesn’t always go perfectly. Mindy.

Mindy: Right, right. Well, there’s like where I live, I live in Indiana and it’s apartment buildings are going up like crazy. And I see this one area has been a forest for, oh my gosh, 34 years. And so they just cut them down, clear cut them and and just put this big pile of logs and I know where they’re going. , they’re going to take them to the landfill. I know exactly where they’re going. Really? Yeah, really?

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Yes, yes. Landfill.

Mindy: Landfill. Yep these trees are too big to chip one for like mulch. But yes, they’re huge trees. They’re beautiful trees, but they’re not food.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Why aren’t they used for timber planking or construction or.

Mindy: Well, I was told another, uh, guest that I interviewed was telling me that his business is actually where he. He’s not doing GMOs. He’s doing what we would call an ag selective breeding. So for certain traits and stuff like that, and they’ve got three different ways they do it, but they call it genetically enhanced. And I know where I feel the comment person when they hear that they think of a GMO, but this is not a GMO. But he was talking about he had a house built and he was curious to see where the wood came from. And he was in the Pacific Northwest. And he had sort of felt like it would be local wood. But when he looked at it, it came from Costa Rica. And so he was asking and he was told it was cheaper to have wood shipped in to the States than to use local wood. You know, these trees. I’m totally 150% in agreement. It’s a no waste of these trees when they could be used for, you know, a menagerie of things. I mean, they could a nonprofit organization could pick them up, or the company could donate them, and they could hire homeless people to kind of process the wood. And then the wood could be used to build homes for homelessness or disadvantaged whatever. And, you know, I would be all on board on that. I’m brilliant, but I’m not on board of the landfill issue. No, no.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: But I’m. Can I? But also, it’s not just about the waste of the actual timber itself. It’s about the carbon footprint of the timber coming from Costa Rica. It’s about we need to employ local people doing local jobs wherever we are in the world, carefully using resources in a sustainable and responsible way. And it’s not just about the cost of the plank of the wood, is it? It’s about the whole community benefiting from. Oh well, yeah.

Mindy: North America is not really into the ESG as of yet. And I had a client, I was tutoring a guy in environmental financing, and then I had another client that his company that he works for makes bags for produce bags, dog food bags. I mean, it was very fascinating. And they have a goal. They’re in Europe their, , their major offices in Europe. And they have a goal in utilizing the ESG. And they have this whole checks and balances and they’ve only got like four manufacturers global because their factories are inspected. They talk to the employees, you know, part of the ESG as is how you treat your employees. Are you hiring underserved? You know, this this whole this whole thing. And they were extremely passionate about it. And they kept, you know, it’s the responsible thing to do. And they even had what they were currently doing on their website where people could check it out. But they didn’t stop there. They was a gentleman that traveled globally, and his job was to go to these factories. And it’s not, you know, one check and you’re done. They are annually inspected, talked to the people, make sure all the boxes are checked. Make sure you know they are abiding By their company’s requirements as far as the ESG. And I was like, that is just so, so wonderful. Yeah. , North America is is not in that.

Mindy: But yeah, people just don’t. At least in North America, they don’t really understand the whole complexity and the cost. But most people have never really understood the cost of, of a whether it’s beef or corn or, you know, your tomatoes you buy at the grocery store, a lot of people don’t really understand, you know, the true cost of production. And, you know, they get their tomatoes from Mexico and it’s inexpensive and, you know, it’s wonderful. But they don’t really think about, do you buy that tomato from Mexico. You know, what you’re doing to the American farmer. And so it’s going to have to be a change in Mindset. And when I was in graduate school, I my thesis in the States we have a farming practice called CAFOs which are confined animal feedlot operations. And this community that’s in Kentucky is it’s a poor community company that moved in is a very well known chicken producer. And so they what they did, they were causing a lot of environmental having a lot of environmental impact from chicken manure. And but the the individual farmers weren’t big enough for any type of regulatory agency to come in and find them or anything like that. So in this community, it’s poor people. And these whether you’re raising the chickens, whether you’re processing the chickens, whether you’re at the world, there’s a world famous barbecue place in this community, and they get their chicken from the processing plant in the community, you know, and they.

Mindy: This chicken company does go, they do hire local people and all that stuff. But you know, I’ve, I was in graduate school and, and we went to this world famous barbecue place and we were all sitting there eating chicken and, you know, like ten minutes later, everybody was like, we’re going to boycott that, that chicken company and all that stuff. And now, you know, you paid 5.95 for your all you can eat buffet of chicken. And you know, you have to talk with your dollar. You have to know, businesses will change if they’re losing profit. If people say no more, we’re not going to tolerate that. At least an egg. People change, companies change. But it all boils down to the almighty dollar, unfortunately. And I think forestry in the area I live in, it is my dad had some beautiful black walnut trees that got taken down by a storm, and we tried and tried and tried to find somebody to come pick him up and mail them. And they wouldn’t because they were so afraid of a nail being in the wood, and it would ruin their blade. And I understand that. And they ended up laying there and rotting because we couldn’t find anybody to come get them.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: What a shame.

Mindy: But it’s just, you know, it’s changing from my perspective. It’s changing the attitude and being more responsible with our resources. And if it’s these animal, you know, being more responsible because, you know, if we if we don’t change our attitudes on the value of our natural environment, we’re going to lose our natural environment. And we’ve lost many species of animals because we just refuse to change in a behavior that would protect.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: It’s the same in the UK, but we are now very heavily regulated. And we have areas of rewilding. I mean, we’re a very small country, of course, but things are getting better. The statistics are getting better and people are a lot more enlightened. But oh yes, there’s a long, long way to go. But we have a great high degree of regulation about, say, development and nature and trees and individual trees and people’s gardens can be protected by law, which I know can’t happen in the States, but it really is different. You can have things called a tree preservation order. And if you’ve got a tree in your garden and you want to prune it or sell it, if it’s protected, you have to get permission from the council. And the council might say no, because that tree is deemed to be really, really important in the landscape. And there are other sorts of regulations that protect trees and forests in the UK and wildlife. So we are in a different situation, but we’ve come to it too, you know, very late and we’ve lost a lot of our hedgerows and a lot of our nature. But people aren’t even things are better now, which is such a small thing. But roadside verges aren’t cut now more than once a year. So you’ve got all the natural wildflowers and it’s all the insects and everything, whereas years ago it would just be cut. Just small measures can make a big difference.

Mindy: In the change of, , we had something very similar in a city next to me. And what they did, they planted natural grasses and because they, they didn’t want the cost of having to mow every week, , the natural grasses could just be mowed once they reseed, everything’s wonderful. But it wasn’t the typical landscape that is acceptable in North America. And so it lasted for several years. And then we got a new mayor. Well, this city got a new mayor, and they went in and they took out all the natural grasses and they put, you know, the Bradford pear which is very invasive in North America. And, you know, they put stuff that has to be maintained and pruned and moaned. And because it was it was what was expected as far as landscaping goes.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Interesting, interesting. So in the UK we have something called the Chelsea Flower Show which is the gardening show. Have you heard of it?

Mindy: Yes I.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Have. Right. So the whole flavor of the Chelsea Flower Show in the last few years has been about nature first, and everything being very naturalistic, and every benefit or the benefits to wildlife are really highlighted. And our gardening programs, particularly the main gardening program in the UK, is about. How can we help nature in our gardens? Because I’m so you say yards, don’t you? But you know, it’s a tremendous resource for wildlife. Everybody’s backyard. Collectively it’s a habitat isn’t it. And we can all do things and plant flowers, which. , produce a lot of nectar and things that grow seeds and nuts, etc., and pollen. We’ve all got that responsibility not to be too tidy. And I think there is change. It takes a while for society to actually see the beauty in things which are not tidy and manicured. So right away from the need to control.

Mindy: Right. We have a thing. Well, I do it. , no mow may.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Yes, we have it here.

Mindy: So when the bees come out and yeah, I live in an urban environment, but on the farm it’s no problem. I leave out probably half an acre unmowed. And because my dad likes his grass, but he gives me the luxury of having to have an acre. But my backyard, I let it grow up. And every year I get a knock on the door. And some neighbors had an issue. And. And you know, our grass can’t be taller than, than eight inches. And I’m just like, oh my gosh, really? You know, I’m just trying. You have no idea. I mean, it’s just not you, but this person from the city, you just have no idea. And, you know, my friend will be manicured and all that, but my back, I let it do its thing. And, you know, it’s my private space. I have a privacy fence and stuff like that, but I again, it’s just the perception of I’m just letting part of your landscape wild for a while. It’s just to help you know everything out. But we are so used to teach a landscaping class, and we went into the history of lawns and stuff. And why in North America we started mowing our lawns and we are so accustomed to that manicured, managed look that anything that diverts away from that is, is, you know, it’s unclean or it’s unhealthy or, you know, it’s going to cause the world to end or something along that lines. I think, I.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Think it’s about control. I think it’s about just trying to have everything neat and perfect and control and have dominion over the land, which feels like quite an old fashioned. I mean, it’s very I don’t think I’m being terribly rude. , but there’s a place for neatness, isn’t there? There’s a place for neatness and style in the landscape and it works, and it’s actually important. But there are many, many more places to just relax a bit and let nature be the one in control.

Mindy: Right, right. And I think, see, you know, like occasionally maybe every other year or something, somebody will come up with a naturalistic landscape design that fits in the urban environment, but it’s, you know, wild enough without looking like, unkept, you know, where it’s it’s detracting. So I do see some things changing in North America, but again, not quick enough, you know. How has technology influenced the practice of arboriculture in recent years, and what role has your company played in this transformation?

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Well, my company hasn’t played any role in the transformation other than the use of tree radar. When I had that piece of equipment Commitment. So that was about getting people to think. One of the tools of thinking, how do we understand what’s happening underground? So we really do need to understand how and where trees are rooting and different rooting trends, and how we need to care for our tree roots. Because care for the roots, care for the tree. But in terms of generally in arboriculture, I think we’re enormously helped by simply tree data recording. I mean, going back perhaps to our early career, it was pen and paper, wasn’t it? But now everything’s done digitally. Digitally where I can never say, and now we’ve got all this marvelous sort of drones, lidar, 3D photographs forming a rotating image. , obviously computer aided design. There are also the tremendous resources Of satellite imagery, , really providing a snapshot of what the canopy cover is of a city. And so we can monitor change and we can then target where we need to plant more trees and also map that with knowledge of, say, social inequality and health inequity. So, you know, where people are poorer and experience worse health. There’s often a lower tree canopy cover. Not always. And there is a correlation. And so it’s trying to using all of this imagery and technology to really redress those balances. , using AI tree etc.. So we’ve never been more informed about the state of our tree scape, as it were, and we’ve never had better technology to do it. Will it ever get to the point, though Mindy, where tree surveys will be done remotely and it will be so. I and there’ll be something on the ground to ground truth.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Yeah, I think there’s a balance there. But you can’t beat the experience of actually getting mud on your boots and going to have a look at a tree and really checking it out. But I do think that we should look to technology to really help us. And also, again, it really helps with that parity with other professionals and being seen to be, you know, just as important, just as upskilled as them, because we’re using all of this kit. And of course we’ve got the kit Arboriculturists have so many different pieces of kit to measure tree health. So we’ve got pickers, as you know, resistor graphs to look at what’s going on inside the trunk. And they’ve got different pieces of equipment to measure the chlorophyll fluorescence of the leaves, the measure of tree health we’ve got. I often instruct a company to do static load testing to see have the routes have been chopped. Unfortunately, going to lead the tree to fall over. And so we can test that with static load testing and dynamic testing. There’s all sorts of other pieces of kit as well looking at the thermal imaging. And then we’ve got working with our ecologists just looking at you know, is there a bat roost in there finding out where the bats are, navigating what type of species the bats are. And because there are protected species here in the UK. And so it’s great. It’s coming on really, really fast and long may it continue. But never forget the han who’s got all of that wonderful knowledge. It can’t all be tech. What do you think?

Mindy: It’s really funny. The plane I had earlier today, he was, you know, there’s some arborists that are excited about I you know, you just I will tell you what’s wrong and and you just remotely treat it or and there’s a reason why people went into forestry and arboriculture. Because they like to work outside and they like to get dirt on their boots and they. Yeah. And there’s kind of equated I and the treatment, you know, getting a prescription, so to speak, from I as to what’s wrong with your tree. Very much like you don’t want to go to the doctor. So you diagnose yourself by what WebMD says. There are times you need to go to the doctor so the doctor can, you know, check you out. And trees need to be touched. You need to see them. You need to see what else is going on around. So I think the technology we have that’s coming on fast, like you said, I mean, I own three drones, but I use mine for agriculture. I think it’s a good tool, but it should replace. And just like WebMD is a good reference, depending on how you feel to to get a possibility of what could be wrong, but to really hone in with what the true issue is, you need to go to a trained professional to find.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: I absolutely agree with you and also not to be completely woo woo here. I agree. Technology is fantastic. We need to learn it. We used to use it appropriately, not overuse it just because it’s there, but use it when we need to. But it does need the trained professional to go out, see, touch, smell the tree because it’s also about the beauty. We’ve got to understand the beauty and the role in the landscape, the history, the culture of that forest or individual tree or trees, what it means to the people around them. What stories might there be around that particular tree? And that’s han knowledge, isn’t it? So it’s aren’t we lucky that we have this technology and it’s coming on fast? But let’s never, ever forget that it’s a tool for us to hold in our hand or virtual hand. It’s not the master.

Mindy: Well, there’s a book, and I’m trying to think who the author is. It is called Sand County Almanac. And there’s there’s a story in there. This tree has died, and this guy is taking the tree down, and and he takes it down and he talks kind of in general, things that happened in the life of that tree, the history from the environment. And then when he’s splitting it, he’s he’s adding more knowledge as he’s splitting the wood and that, you know, he really brings Full circle that as hans we have history, but so do trees. And they record their history and their tree rings. And , you know, this tree had been around, you know, it was like five years old when the Civil War hit. And, you know, it was that kind of and what the tree saw and experienced. And I think we forget, you know, the, the living history that’s in our, in the trees. I mean, I have trees I drafted when I was at Purdue and they’re still on the farm and they’re still growing. And I mean, that’s a history to me. That’s a history to my family that, you know, I, I grafted those babies and I brought them to the farm and I planted them.

Mindy: And I’ve told my kids that and my grandkids aren’t quite old enough for that story, but just just the legacy of those trees. And it’s not a store bought tree. It’s, you know, it’s it’s one that was homemade. But yeah, I think a lot of times we get, at least in North America, the old saying time is money, money is time”. We don’t want to consider the value of the trees or the history of the land, unless it’s like Civil War or Revolutionary War, you know, something like that. We want to put something up that is going to give us a nice big return and a quick return, and everything else is is a moot point. But there are a few people that I have interviewed that are in North America that have can see some of these changing attitudes because we have set up, set aside land programs for farms that we don’t have any type of, set aside programs for forests or a tree or anything like that. So maybe North America can model for If.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: You’ve got some really great tree officers in the States who I know. One is Matt Wells and he’s in Santa Monica. He is awesome. Actually, he’s originally from the UK. I think he was the New York tree officer, and now he’s in Santa Monica, and he’s doing amazing work in managing his city’s tree population and trying to plant really well and effectively where it really matters. And I also had the pleasure of I met I was in Sweden last November at a conference and met James Castelli, who is a community tree planting officer at New York City colleges. James, if you’re listening, I’m not sure I said your surname correctly, but you have these great programs in the States, don’t you, for community tree planting. And a friend of mine, Naomi Zircher, who’s from the Bronx, did some Easing sort of community tree planting, community tree work in New York City. She now lives in Switzerland. So you’ve got some really good advocates. Advocates in North America. So yeah, you’re doing good stuff too.

Mindy: A program called trees USA, where you have to plant so many trees in your city, and then you can get certified as a Tree City. And I know Louisville, Kentucky has had several projects to try to achieve the Tree City because they are a heat island, really bad and but they just haven’t been real successful with that approach for many reasons. But they, you know, they continue to do the charge and, and try to get the trees to survive. Well, I.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Urge again, I’m going to mention I’m going to name drop again. Nadina Galle Galley, which is g a l l e. She is a TEDx talk speaker. She’s an international academic on urban forestry, and she coined the phrase the Internet of Nature. Her book and I think it is Nature Our Cities. I’m sorry, I can’t remember the title, but it’s new out and it really tells the facts, but in a really interesting way. Like a novel about the impact of heat domes and the technology being used in the environment to combat that. , wildfires, flooding. And there’s so much hope. There’s so much we can solve, so many of our environmental problems with technology, with science. We just need the political will and the appetite to do it. We have so many skills, so many brilliant scientists, so many wonderful people who know what to do We’ve got some amazing bits of kit, but sometimes it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we don’t need to use that now. But boy, we really do. So, . Yeah, plenty. It’s. Now’s the time, isn’t it?

Mindy: Yes, it really is.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: I probably, probably five years ago was the time. So, uh.

Mindy: Looking ahead, what emerging trends do you see having a significant impact on the arboriculture industry in the coming years? So we talked about tech. You do see that in your opinion that tech is just going to be a tool and we’re still going to have that that kind of cohesion between tech and beats and boots on the ground.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Yes I do, I do. I also think that there’s increased collaboration with other professionals, for example, landscape architects. I also think arboriculture needs to be and is becoming an industry that communicates better Because we have to be the voice for the trees. And I think in the past I’ve observed I want to go back 20 years, not ten. , that a lot of people who worked with trees were perhaps a little bit shy. They weren’t nature show offs, as it were, and we weren’t very good at blowing our own trumpets. But people, we have to be the voice for nature and the voice for trees, and we have to find every way that works for you as a person. Maybe as an arborist, you’re a good writer, maybe you’re a blogger, maybe you like, you can’t stop talking like me and you’re a podcaster, you know, find your groove. Maybe you like to work as a team. So I think communication is incredibly important. Collaboration. And I think innovation as well. So not just innovation of technology but innovation of thought. Okay. So when we’ve got a problem, how can we do things slightly differently to get a result. So I feel really confident about arboriculture. But one, some things are holding it back, and one of the major things we touched on earlier is young folk not knowing it’s a career. Now we are making some progress, as I said earlier, but we’ve got to let people know that it’s a job and we’ve got to communicate clearly and effectively what can be done and what needs to be done.

Mindy: With the increasing focus on sustainability and urban forestry, how do you foresee Arboricultural practices evolving to meet these challenges?

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Well, looking at it from many, many different ways. So first of all, let’s look at it on the very small scale. The individual business itself, you know, its own sustainable practices of waste management, keeping its understanding, its own carbon footprint, travel, etc., use of its own resources. Then there’s the outreach on what it actually does to earn its money. , and then looking at the advice, considering every single stage with their, , their advice to their clients, be it written or verbal, what added benefits can we bring? You may have come to me because you’ve got a problem. You want to say, develop this site with 50 trees and you’re going to have to remove some of them and protect them physically on site. That may be your problem, but we want to come up with not just the obvious solution, but we need to come up with solutions that sustainable use of timber. Can the community be involved? How can we plant trees that are really suited for climate change and a wide range of trees, rather than, let’s say, a lot of Bachelor or a lot of Quercus or whatever is, you know, a really good mix for nature.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: So it’s about the very small scale with the business. The medi scale is your daily work and your advice. And then the very large scale is how individual businesses sustainably link with each other through their professional organizations or whatever ad hoc community groups to share ideas. I mean, I do not believe in keeping things secret and quiet within a business. You need to share that knowledge, listen to other people’s ideas, and then you bring each other up. And that’s why I think fors like LinkedIn are really good, and other social media I don’t use, but where people think, hey, I’ve tried this, this is quite good. And then it spurs on growth. So I see that I see a greater openness between individuals and companies to share the work that they’re doing. Whereas 15, 20 years ago it was like a little bit of that sense of protection. Protection, which is a load of nonsense because we all need to pull together.

Mindy: Right? We share this. We’re all on this little blue ball, we call it. Yeah. And, you know, you’ve got to play together.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: , yeah, we’ve got to play together. We’ve got to help each other and we’ve got to. And sometimes I say, I’ve tried that. That didn’t work, you know, because that’s also information, isn’t it? It doesn’t always have to be that you’ve had this, like smashing success at something. Sometimes things don’t go how you wish. Sometimes things, experiences happen that are really painful. And I share those two.

Mindy: Donors who are involved in agriculture and forestry. What common challenges might they face and how can they overcome them? So we’ve talked about a lot of challenges. So yeah, yeah, I’ll.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Keep it brief. Common challenges being an arboriculturalist, not being instructed, not being asked to to help them with the problem early enough. So quite often I’m sure this is common not just with our profession, but most, you know, people wait until things get really bad. Going back to your medical analogy, you know, you wait until your toenail is really gunky and painful, you know, and it’s like, oh, or something like that. So we need to be asked early when it’s a twinkle in their eye, when it’s a first thought of, I might need somebody here. So that is a challenge, is that we’re often seen as an afterthought. Another challenge has been, and I think Stanley is a little bit, is that we’ve undervalued ourselves and hence we’re undervalued. We are we have great people and we’ve worked hard and we need to be paid appropriately. Another thing is just not being heard. You know the pressures. You’ve talked a lot about the pressures of finance. Well, I think that’s all over the world, isn’t it And so, you know, we have to be that voice for trees, but in a reasonable way that can find a solution. So I think they just ask us too late. They don’t want to pay us enough. And then do they listen. And that can be.

Mindy: Applied to many careers.

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Absolutely.

Mindy: So can you share some best practices for effectively managing urban forest and integrating arboriculture into city planning?

Sharon Durdant-Hollamby: Yes. I mean, I, I don’t do this so much myself, but I know enough about it to have a stab at the question. So I think the thing is to know what you’ve got, have that really good baseline survey of what is the current tree population. And we talked about technology and there are many ways of doing that. It can be boots on the ground, you know, tree inventory which is actually really important. And then a tree strategy, a docent that’s publicly available that goes through an iterative process of communication with local people. We’re thinking of having this policy. What do you think of that? So a really sort of community focused tree strategy. And for that to have political will and to be adopted by that municipality to to actually say, this is this is what we do with trees, this is what we do with our own trees. And I know it’s different in America, but here in the UK, we’d say this is what we’re going to do with trees and planning applications. This is what we’re going to do with trees in private gardens. And I know you’re really good at this. Also, in the States, we’re going to plant this nber of trees and then care for them. Because I don’t know about you, Mindy. I am sick of we’re going to plant a million trees. And that was my American accent, by the way. But we say it here, too. And then nobody talks about we’re going to care for a million trees. We’re going to water a million trees. You know, it’s not about the tree planting targets, is it? It’s about the tree establishment targets. Okay, so so I think. No. What you’ve got. Put it down in a strategy. Communicate that widely. Get it politically adopted. Do what you say you’re going to do. And if you’re going to make a target, make it be about tree establishment not planting.

Mindy: Well, thank you so much, Sharon, for sharing your valuable insights and expertise with us today. It has been an enlightening discussion and I’m sure our listeners have gained a lot from it. For those who want to learn more about Sharon, be sure to visit her website’s podcast and YouTube channel. Don’t forget to subscribe to Forestry Arboriculture timber talks for more episodes featuring experts in the field. Until next time, take care and keep on Urban Forest alive. And just to remind everybody. Sharon’s podcast, she’s known as the Tree Lady Talks. It’s on Buzz sprout and her. Youtube channel is at Tree Lady Talks.