Beyond Greenwashing Real Solutions for Reforestation with Matthew Aghai

Episode Overview

Episode Topic

In this episode of Timber Talks,host Mindy sits down with Matthew Aghai, Chief Science Officer at Mast Reforestation, to explore the evolving landscape of reforestation and sustainable forestry practices. As the effects of climate change become more apparent, the importance of innovative reforestation techniques grows. Matthew shares his insights on how reforestation strategies have adapted over the last decade in response to increased visibility and urgency in tackling deforestation and wildfires. The conversation dives deep into the intersection of technology, climate action, and ecological restoration, shedding light on the role of reforestation in carbon sequestration and environmental stewardship. Join us for an enlightening discussion on the future of our forests and what it takes to preserve them.

Lessons You’ll Learn

Listeners will gain a comprehensive understanding of the current trends in reforestation and the challenges facing the forestry industry today. Matthew discusses the practical need for reforestation amidst growing concerns about climate change, highlighting the role of innovative technologies like drones, AI, and biotechnology in driving the industry forward. You’ll learn about the importance of a long-term ecological approach versus traditional methods and how carbon markets are shaping the future of reforestation efforts. Discover how forest professionals can adapt to these changes, the need for hands-on stewardship, and why sustainable forestry practices are crucial for our planet’s health and future. This episode offers valuable insights for anyone interested in sustainable development, environmental science, or the future of our natural landscapes.

About Our Guest

Matthew Aghai is the Chief Science Officer at Mast Reforestation, a company dedicated to advancing reforestation techniques and promoting sustainable forestry practices. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Matthew has been at the forefront of developing innovative strategies to tackle deforestation and the adverse effects of climate change. His work spans various domains, from the practical application of reforestation technologies like drones and AI to fostering collaborative efforts within the forestry community. Matthew’s deep knowledge and hands-on experience make him a leading voice in the industry, advocating for non-extractive economies and the pivotal role of forests in carbon sequestration. In this episode, he shares his journey and vision for a sustainable future, emphasizing the need for practical solutions and community involvement in reforestation.

Topics Covered

This episode covers a broad range of topics, beginning with an exploration of how reforestation practices have evolved in the face of climate change and increased public awareness. Matthew Aghai discusses the necessity of innovative approaches to forest management, including the use of advanced technologies such as drones, exoskeletons, and AI. We delve into the practical challenges faced by forestry professionals and the role of carbon markets in funding sustainable reforestation efforts. The conversation also touches on the importance of long-term stewardship, the economic and ecological value of forests, and the impact of policies and incentives in driving change within the industry. Whether you’re a forestry professional, environmental advocate, or simply interested in the future of our forests, this episode provides a wealth of information and actionable insights.

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About the Guest: Matthew Aghai

Episode Transcript

 Mindy: Welcome to another episode of Forestry and Arboriculture timber Talks, the podcast where we dive into the latest trends, innovations and insights in the world of forestry and arboriculture. I’m your host, Mindy, and today we have a distinguished guest with us. We are thrilled to welcome Matthew Aghai, the Chief Science Officer at Mast Reforestation, a company dedicated to innovative and reforestation techniques and sustainable forestry practices. Matthew brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to our discussion. Welcome to the show, Matthew.

Matthew Aghai: Thanks, Mindy. It’s a pleasure to be here.

 Mindy: Matthew, you’ve been a prominent figure in the reforestation and forestry industry for many years. Can you share how the approach to reforestation has evolved over the past decade.

Matthew Aghai: Yeah, that’s a.

Matthew Aghai: Really big question. I think a good way to start is to really say that the techniques and approaches are evolving, and I think what’s more important that happened over the last ten years is actually the visibility of reforestation to broader lay communities and practitioner communities. And what I mean by that effectively is that a combination of effective necessity, urgency, practical need, and in some cases, a little bit of hyperbole has helped to accelerate the conversation about the importance of reforestation, you know, over the last ten years. So if you’ll allow, I can kind of break that down a little further.

 Mindy: Okay, sure. Go ahead.

Matthew Aghai: Yeah. So in terms of necessity, people are no longer disconnected from deforestation events. You know, whether it’s wildfire in northern, you know, in the northern Hemisphere, or, for instance, slash and burn agriculture in the tropics. You know, people are actually seeing this more so not only on the news and in social media, but directly in their communities. I mean, I’m here in Central Oregon right now, and I’m breathing wildfire smoke. And last year, the fires in Canada were so intense that New Yorkers were breathing that even though it was a totally different ecosystem on the other side of the continent. Right. So just in terms of understanding that there’s a problem, people are seeing that there’s a necessity to address it. Now, whether or not that trickles down to actual action and reforestation is yet to be seen, but we’re seeing trends in that direction. Another thing that drives that wildfire problem, these other deforestation problems are becoming more visible is the urgency around climate action. A lot of these things are a product of mismanagement of our landscapes or economic drivers. Right. But they’re also a product of anthropogenically influenced, you know, climate change. So effectively we have blown past every CO2 emissions target for the last 20 years, and we’re about to blow past everyone in the next ten. And so, despite the best intentions to scale back emissions, progress in Han civilization is really driven by the need for energy and perpetual growth economics.

Matthew Aghai: And frankly, you know, policymakers and corporate leaders who are at the forefront of this haven’t been working together fast enough and more effectively to address this. And I think the public is becoming more aware of this. And it’s, you know, part of conversations. And, and, you know, when somebody says the words carbon sequestration of carbon footprint, you know, and somewhere in their mind, I believe reforestation is sitting there as one of those solutions. And that’s becoming more visible in the last ten years in terms of practical need, you know, and this is unfortunately a biased but a reality hot take, reality based hot take. There are no current technologies better than ecosystems, specifically things like trees and other organisms for sequestering carbon. So direct air capture, engineered solutions, behavioral solutions are all good, but they’re still on a distant horizon. So, you know, the practical need of reforestation is becoming a part of the conversation for a variety of reasons, both climate driven but also practical, and one that’s also esthetic and one that is cultural for for people like you feel better when there are trees around, the cities are less hotter. And if we can make sure that the forests maintain themselves as forests, even with our help, we have a technology that solves the carbon dioxide problem, potentially, and a variety of co-benefits.

Matthew Aghai: So, practically speaking, this is something that’s, you know, evolved from probably not really part of the conversation to very much part of the conversation and how we get there is my last point, which is that little bit of hyperbole. You know, many are guilty of this, myself included. We make big statements like planting trillions of trees or restoring millions of acres. And these are attention grabbing headlines, definitely worthy statements because, you know, we need to be thinking big in order to kind of address these big problems. But, you know, we have to realize that these statements are nested in a reality that forests grow slow. And so these investments need to be made now. So the hyperbole is a way to accelerate interest. But really we have to somehow just relativize the fact that even if you’re in the equator or equatorial regions, you know, you’re still talking about restoration practices, techniques and planting seeds or planting seedlings that will grow over decades and maybe centuries. So, you know, part of my personal mission is to ensure that this hyperbole turns into a practical reality in conversations. And I think that started to happen over the last ten years, and hopefully that means the speed of innovation, restoration and mitigation of climate change using forests is actually something that becomes more of a reality through time. So that’s the long winded answer.

 Mindy: So do you think, I mean, like where I live, they’re putting apartment buildings up like crazy. , where I was raised on a farm and behind the farm is land. It’s been land locked for, , my gosh, probably 200, 300 years. I mean, as long as we’ve lived there, it’s been land locked and a family has purchased many acres behind my dad’s. And it couldn’t pass the percolation test because we don’t have sewers, we’ve got septic tanks. And so the county commissioner said, you know, nobody will ever build back there because just minimally, it won’t pass the percolation test. So many years later, the family that bought this went a different direction. And so, you know, they. They’re clear cutting and putting up their mini malls and, and stuff like that. And I think when I see these, you know, millions of acres being planted, I think sometimes it’s a little greenwashing because, you know, unless you’re involved in that industry or even in agriculture, you know, it takes time for things to grow. It’s not an overnight solution. But like you said, people hear that headline or read that headline and it’s eye-catching but they don’t really understand the full situation that they’re not going to be harvesting the trees tomorrow. It’s, you know, probably your great great grandchildren will see, you know, that type of thing. So do you think there’s some level because I know some people still don’t believe in climate change. Do you still think there’s some of that greenwashing going on.

Matthew Aghai: It’s a hard question for me to answer, because there’s so many different permutations of what we classify as greenwashing and so many different levels. But I think you raise a point that I’ll address this way. People have an inherent interest in nature being present, and it’s bipartisan, if you’ll allow me, to use that classification to benefit us to actually work together to make sure that natural systems are available for us. And it’s not a matter of politics around the economy of timber or fiber or mini malls and development and rules. It’s simply that we are co-inhabitants on this planet with organisms that create environmental conditions that make it suitable for us and, frankly, each other. There’s a co-benefit there. So, for example, when we lose that area to a mini mall that you described, you know, we lose an area for throughfall of rain that ultimately, you know, trickles down through a root system of a forest that filters it and puts it into a watershed that everyone benefits from, regardless of your position on climate change, regardless of your position on politics and policy. We all need water in our toilets, or in our sinks, or in our drinking glasses. And forests create a natural system to not only regulate the climate, make it cooler, and evapotranspiration water into the clouds, rain, but also create a healthy soil system for filtration.

Matthew Aghai: So, you know, I want the conversation to go less towards mudslinging around greenwashing versus politics and timber versus ecology and versus conservation versus management, and really around practical first principles of effective need. We all need water, we all need healthy systems, and we also need wood fiber, wood fibers and calories. Right. So how do we create a cohesive Of conversation to manage for all of those benefits. And my perspective is one that’s really going to be cynical. It’s I think we just need incentives from top to bottom. We need to incentivize that behavior, because otherwise people are going to take the least common denominator. And when they get that 200 acre, you know, lot, they’re going to say, how do I make money off of this? And how do I sustain my family and feed my kids and pay the college fund? Right. And that’s very short term thinking. Whereas if we were to incentivize people to have that thinking over a century and maybe start thinking about their great grandkids, maybe their choices would have been different. And there are some market mechanisms that are allowing us to do this, like carbon, and maybe we’ll get to that in that conversation.

 Mindy: Well, I know, , been hired by the Smithsonian Institute to do a book review for them, and it was on North American Garden Club that actually saved the sequoias. You know, this female gardening club, the women got on the train, they went out, they picketed, and they also were able to, which I’m not a real big fan of, but it was a move forward. I guess you could say they really got on the bandwagon of encouraging people to use artificial trees for Christmas versus live trees, because the number of of pines that were being taken down for the holiday season were crazy. But they knew once those all those trees were gone because they were being timbered, you know, that was it. You know, they wouldn’t they were not going to see trees that large in their lifetime or their kid’s lifetime or their great, you know, that type of thing. So I had another guest and I was telling that story about, you know, women power. And they, you know, they stopped the timbering of the of the giant sequoias. So, yeah, I totally agree with you. We’re all on this blue marble together. And we need to to figure out how to coexist in a healthy way and not act like we’re superior. And so hopefully that conversation will continue. Hopefully. Yeah. Mastery of forestation is known for its cutting edge reforestation techniques. Could you provide some examples of innovative methods or technologies your company has developed or adopted?

Matthew Aghai: Yeah. Master’s had a really incredible journey over the six or so years that I’ve been with the company, and I guess I could walk you through some of the things we’ve worked on and where we are today in a way that might excite some folks, some of your listeners around some of the innovation that’s happening in reforestation. So when it first started, Mast had a mission which is to scale reforestation and mitigate the worst effects of climate change. But it needed an entry point. And I’ll note that’s the same mission we have today. So over six years of an evolution, you know, it’s still the same mission. It’s the strong one and ambitious to the point of hyperbole earlier. So when mast started, it needed an entry point, and that entry point was really working with the people who were doing the most tree planting, and that was the timber industry. And the founder set up the company in the western US and in the western US. We have a very mature timber industry that manages a lot of land. And they and like many other landowners, are not immune from wildfires. So in early conversations, you know, the company was learning that wildfire affected lands under industrial ownership, where plantations were an objective, could use some help. And some of the challenges around developing technology for that were really around mitigating some of the workloads or whether it was physical or machine labor, or whether it was efficiencies around putting touch points on these sites and helping them regenerate. So the early iterations of the company were working on things like site preparation.

Matthew Aghai: So management of weeds and then seeding for these companies and scenarios that were post-wildfire. So wildfire would ravage an area and destroy a bunch of timber trees. And that company was interested in restoring that at the most cost effective, safe, and least labor intensive way possible, because these were increasing acres that were upending their business model. Right. But for a lot of these industrial operations, which is a lot of how we use our managed forests, you know, very industrially managed, you know, we have very low interest in spending a lot of money per acre, because these are assets that are managed over decades. So you don’t see a return on investment for many years out. So we were innovating and developing aircraft for spraying these sites and dropping seeds on these sites. But the cost per acre was not quite at an efficiency that these industry groups were ready to invest in in the long term. But at the same time, in that journey of developing those aircrafts and those solutions. We started to identify other problems, which was a shortage of seed. The supply chain for actual reforestation work were very much nested in the efficiencies of large industrial timber operations. So, you know, how are we supposed to scale reforestation and introduce these technologies if we don’t have fundamental building blocks and supply chains to disrupt, you know, the way a technology company disrupts. So, you know, this this early company, which we called ourselves drone seed and drone seed build aircrafts and amazing biotechnology, these pucks that were an exercise in biomimicry for reducing seed loss and being efficient with how we could drop seeds in these forests and help them establish into young seedlings.

Matthew Aghai: You know, these are all great things. And these were, you know, efforts that we invested significantly in and pioneered in many ways. But we realized that the real effort needed to be in somehow figuring out how to take that approach to technology innovation and reforestation innovation and apply it to the entire front to back supply chain. So this is where I became useful to the company and evolved into what we are today. You know, I’ve been working in reforestation for 20 some years all over the world, and a lot of that work has been in the Western US talking to the few people, practitioners, uh, managers, , you know, whoever it was that was still, , holding on to the fabric of what was a, a reforestation economy. Right. And one of those groups was these two brothers that had owned a historic company called Silversea. It’s a 130 year old seed company that eventually turned into a nursery as well. And this company is actually agnostic to who their customers are, whether they’re industry timber folks or restoration practitioners or conservationists. Their mission has been for 130 years to collect as much native wild orchid tree seed. Process it, bank it, and make it available through a retail marketplace for anyone in the world. It really serves a global marketplace.

Matthew Aghai: But then through that journey, they also started producing seedlings and they produced buried seedlings for, you know, commercial timber or for Christmas tree markets for restoration practitioners. But also they started innovating on container seedling production. So we have this light bulb go off that if we were to, you know, help this company or partner with them, we could effectively, you know, put ourselves in a position to start to modernize through our technological, you know, expertise and our engineering expertise. You know, we could modernize this element of the supply chain is a model for do that, doing that at a much bigger scale and serving a broader scaling reforestation effort. That conversation was really fruitful. And it turns out, much like the rest of the forestry supply chain, these brothers are at retirement age. We’re looking to relinquish their business to somebody, and we’re hoping that it wouldn’t permute and become a different story right there. They didn’t want this to be sold into a corporate model. They didn’t want it to be sold into something that would effectively break down what was otherwise a community level business that had been serving this marketplace for so long. So we have this conversation. We realized we were aligned and ultimately we made that acquisition. So we purchased that business and then immediately started working with the capabilities of that institution to really scale our work as an innovator in reforestation more broadly. And this cascaded and I could go on for, for a while, so I’ll cut it short. But the idea is that we found other businesses like this, like Cal Forest Nurseries down in Northern California.

Matthew Aghai: And much like Silva said, it had a decades long history of serving not only industry but broader reforestation needs. And between the two businesses, they were doing the majority of reforestation, community reforestation, materials supply. In fact, Silva Seed for 100 years has been the single largest collector, extractor laboratory and distributor of tree seed around the globe and in the western US. You know, compared to anybody by many fold. And it’s a quiet little business in Roy Washington that nobody really thinks about. Right. So what that means is now we have access to all these different practitioners that maybe aren’t directly employed by these businesses but are in partnership with these businesses. So I’m going to call them an ecosystem of stewards and service providers, from your tree seed collectors to your tree climbers that do that work, to your tree planters that do your work, to your foresters that purchase the seedlings and write land prescriptions. And we’ve created this network where there’s a trickle down effect of innovation and capital flow from the projects we’re developing, the technologies that we’re developing and innovating on, you know, that is now becoming accessible to these communities. And that information is moving through these markets in a way that is catalyzing others in this sector to do good work as well, including government agencies, nonprofits and those who are coming up behind us. You know, like you see in other any other trends in, you know, industry influencing others.

 Mindy: Let’s see here. Looking ahead, what emerging trends do you see having a significant impact on the reforestation and forestry industry in the coming years? And I’ve had some guests. We’ve talked about drones. We had a gentleman that mentioned exoskeletons being involved in that, AI being involved in reforestation. Is there any other, you know, technology that you’re really excited about?

Matthew Aghai: I’m excited about all of the technologies. So yes, all of the robotics, all of the technological solutions. You know, everyone’s putting the AI and blockchain label on something. It’s great. These are all great. However, I want to set a reality for everyone because, you know, I’ve been at the forefront of this for almost a decade, and I will say that all of these technologies and ideas are nice, but someone has to pay for them. And if we can’t pay for them, they’re only going to be these things that are on the horizon, and they’re going to have innovators and investors that develop them. But until they create an efficiency that reduces the cost of implementation, they’re not going to be operating at scale. That’s just not a reality. And I say that very, very confidently. Forest management is an even more difficult business to squeeze capital out of, you know, then then agribusiness and agribusiness, some would argue, hasn’t evolved all that quickly with technological innovation unless it’s been high yield commercial agriculture. And we all know that, you know, we need that in some elements of our society, big monocultures that produce high voles of things. And you’ve seen that in our forests. But those efficiencies move away from the ecosystem, you know restoration right. Ecosystem health. And we need to figure out the balance between the two. So I actually think that the future of innovation, whether it’s drones, whether it’s exoskeletons, whether it’s satellites, whether it’s biotechnologies or harnessing fungal bacteria or, you know, mycorrhiza or whatever it is, you know, if we’re going to do those things on a per acre basis, we need to figure out how to create value on a per acre basis. That is non-extractive, meaning we need to move away from the extraction economies like timber extraction, fiber extraction that have created that vertical and sustained the baseline of these technologies for the last century and move into a new way of valuing the things that are above ground and measurable, below ground and measurable, perhaps.

Matthew Aghai: And so my answer to your question, it took me a minute to arrive. There is really carbon markets. I think the biggest innovation that’s coming online in a really big way Is the way that capital can flow through voluntary carbon markets to speed up investment in reforestation efforts globally, and hopefully ideally in our backyards here in North America. And, you know, one of the biggest problem areas that, you know, I really want to make sure we’re connecting the dots on is the entire western part of our continent is on fire. We’ve talked about it already, and there is very little incentive and capital flow to do work in these areas. If it’s purely an extraction economy, that’s looking at these landscapes after the wildfire. However, for carbon markets that are if voluntary carbon markets in particular, that are looking at restoring a myriad of function to that landscape and creating a broader benefit, we can work with the corporate buyers who pay for this to actually catalyze that work, create an economy that is durable over decades of time, and that, in turn will create sustenance and money to go after, to be sought after by innovators that are building drone technology, exoskeletons and all the other things that we will measure impact on on a per acre basis. Right. So first we need to form this capital market around this non-extractive economy. And then the technology will come. So this is a kind of a field of dreams scenario right. If you build it they will come.

 Mindy: They will come. Yes. Well I had a guest I know in Japan. I think it’s Japan or China where we have gym memberships. They have forced memberships and the value of forest as far as building the immune system. And this particular guest told me that there are physicians now that write scripts and and I was in the 1930s, there was a park where I lived. And to make a long story short, in the 1930s, a man was sick, kept going to his doctor. His doctor said, I don’t know what’s wrong with you. Go outside and walk around in the forest for ten minutes and then increase it. And he did that and felt better. And then he ended up changing careers and being a naturalist. And then they named this part. But that was in the 1930s. And, you know, I had another guest that was talking about trying to calculate the dollar and cent value of a forest, because it’s not just the trees. And so, you know, what you were discussing just kind of really doesn’t have a clear picture of the dollar and cent value of an acre of trees beyond the harvesting aspect to it. , and yeah, I really like that type of concept. I saw a company in Sweden as trying to find somebody to do that, calculate the dollar and cents. But yeah, I’ve, I’ve always thought if we continue down the path we were on, that my grandchildren and great grandchildren would have to go to parks to see a tree because everything would be cut down for urban development or whatever. So hopefully we’re swinging in a different direction and keep going. With the increasing focus on climate change and sustainability. How do you foresee reforestation practices evolving to meet these challenges?

Matthew Aghai: Yeah, I mean, I love this question and I’m going to get a little philosophical, but I’ll try to be practical on it. My hope is that we can take reforestation practice over the last century, which has largely been driven by a much more agrarian approach because of the necessities of the timber industry and the funding sources, and really where the economic drivers came from and evolve it to a much more ecological based practice. And this is where those carbon markets play in. If our goal is to create a non extraction economy, then can we value our forests in such a way that we can actually restore them in a way that isn’t high density monocultures that maybe aren’t as resilient or durable as the word I like better? Uh, that compared to some of the lands that need to remain in timber and fiber production for for other economic and societal needs. Right. So I’d like to see reforestation evolve to a practice that doesn’t just grow seedlings for, you know, a uniform distribution, distribution, trees per acre, trees per hectare, and start to think about these landscapes in a much more dynamic way. So we we start to use technologies like satellites, drones in a way that is useful to actually classify terrain and start to look at it in a much more dynamic landscape, not as a bed for a row of trees, but as a dynamic landscape that might have biological legacies that we want to plant around, for instance, intact pieces of soil or old trees that may allow for, you know, the migration of species above and below ground and that we could plant around in a way that kind of helps move some of the materials and species of those biological islands and spread them into areas that we’re restoring.

Matthew Aghai: Right. Or, for instance, just planting trees and claps together so that they can protect each other and facilitate growth in the much harsher future, climate conditions that are much dowdier, that are more likely to see catastrophic, high intensity wildfire moved through the landscape. Right. And a variety of other permutations of that. So my optimistic view of what that, you know, evolution is, is one that starts to talk about forest land management from an ecosystem perspective. And I think the technology from, you know, everything I described to even the models and classification mechanisms of these landscapes can evolve to, to kind of catch up to that. So I’m optimistic in that sense.

 Mindy: So do you feel they I probably will get the acronym wrong the ESG? Do you think that’s going to have any effect whatsoever in North America?

Matthew Aghai: I really am optimistic. I’m an optimist. You’ll find that it will. But I think the conversation needs to put more pressure on the companies to make some brave investments and create catalytic funding in our backyards. So the Western United States is where a lot of wildfires are happening, for example. And in the western United States, you have a lot of large corporations sustaining their businesses, whether it’s data centers for the large tech companies or industries doing a lot of manufacturing, processing from like oil and gas to, you name it, type of industry, right. So they have an opportunity to actually take some of their ESG goals, whether they have them or not, or some of their sustainability objectives or directives, and respond to pressure by investing in their backyards to create these healthy forests. And those healthy forests will, in turn create stewards of, you know, ecosystem service providers that are now colleagues and dwelling in the same cities where they have employees and they have industry and manufacturers. So it ultimately creates a fabric that is much more healthy and well invested, that transcends just that urban environment and gets into some of these wildlands where we’re having these problems. And I think these types of ESG through lines are still not as nuanced yet. Right. Those conversations are very much about putting pressure on the corporations to have these goals. And then the corporations saying, well, I have a goal by 2030 to become, uh, x uh, carbon neutral, right, x percentage of carbon neutral. And that’s fine. But what does that mean in a material way for American communities or Canadian communities that are experiencing catastrophic impacts of climate change. Like, let’s have a through line that makes direct sense. You know, in the backyards of many of these fortune 500 companies. And then let’s see them tell us this story of investment that is tangible, as opposed to just some metric that’s posted up against a wall, right. So I’m optimistic that we’ll get there and that we’re just in the infancy of the evolution of these conversations.

 Mindy: Well, I know Europe is. I had a different client who’s it was a very interesting job, but the company was very invested in ESG. And I know Europe has this goal, but I haven’t I don’t really hear much in North America about the ESG. What advice would you give to forestry professionals who want to stay ahead of future changes and advancements in the industry?

Matthew Aghai: This is a complicated question to answer. You know, it seems simple on the surface, but the word forestry professional is actually something that has evolved quite a bit just in the 20 years that I’ve been doing this work. So 20 years ago when I was an undergrad, you know, in Indiana at Purdue University studying forestry, the options were you can go the research or faculty route, or you can go into the forestry industry. And the forestry industry was really a wood products industry, right? But now, 20 years later, I’ve been through three different degree programs. I’ve been working in private, public, private and nonprofit ventures. And I’ve been at this VC backed startup. And, you know, the entire ecosystem of availability for careers in forestry have evolved. And I think we’ve got a long way to go. And the reason it’s evolved is because of that, you know, conversation we started with, which is necessity, urgency and visibility to the lay public about what forest management really could mean in the future. So it’s not just a wood product, timber fiber or, you know, specialty. Wood products community that can employ forestry professionals. Now it’s. Actually managing and tending to ecosystems. It’s you know. Thinking about urban areas in a really big way. And so the advice I would give to you. Maybe young professionals are, you know, think big and don’t feel limited by the curricula that are still not evolved to set you up for a much broader set of career possibilities when you’ve gotten your forestry certifications or degrees coming out of university.

Matthew Aghai: Which brings me to a second point. And that’s the universities are still playing catch up to train a workforce for, you know, these future forestry professions, these present forestry professions. You know, I went through three different degree programs, all in forest resources, forest ecology, and not a single one of them could have exposed me to the type of business, you know, knowledge that I needed, the the innovation approaches that I needed, and really thinking about how to connect commerce in a way that wasn’t the timber economy to practicing knowledge of reforestation or forest ecology. Right. So that’s all being formed right now by professionals like myself, but many others who are starting to skin their knees, learning how to build these types of companies and start ups and new ventures and innovative, , you know, leaders and thought leaders at universities who are pioneering and taking some risky first steps. And, you know, studying things like the carbon markets and, you know, innovations. And I think that’s starting to trickle down into curricula. As an example, we probably have 50 SAF accredited institutions around the country, and I think maybe a half dozen for reforestation or regeneration curriculum and maybe 1 or 2 teach forest reproductive biology.

Matthew Aghai: So, you know, like why? Well, it’s because a lot of that was not a necessity in entering the professional workforce. But all of a sudden it’s very necessary. Right. So that is becoming part of the curriculum and conversation in a practical sense that’s achievable by the current faculty. But I think as these companies and the markets come online, there will be a trickle down effect that’s encouraged both through capital incentives and other means, a way for these curricula to adjust to kind of create a next wave of professionals. So what advice would I give, which is to all these folks? I guess the advice I’d give is keep your eyes open. And if you have a passion towards working in this sector, you now have five times more opportunity to work in a sector that you did ten years ago. So whether you’re about to retire or just entering the workforce or somewhere in between, don’t feel isolated to a very specialized area in the forestry workforce. And there’s no reason why you can’t leverage your expertise to help the evolution of things like the carbon markets and, you know, ecosystem management and any other thing beyond just timber and fiber production, which has been more common on our North American landscapes.

 Mindy: So for our listeners who are involved in reforestation and forestry, what common challenges might they face and how can they overcome them?

Matthew Aghai: I suppose the most common challenges that I’ve encountered in both the practical reforestation work and the innovation work, is that the majority of forests, that we tend to require high frequency touch points. And that’s the same for any element of the supply chain, whether it’s the nurseries where we grow plants or the seed collection, where for a few months out of the year, it’s an all hands on deck scenario to go collect seed. You know, no matter where you look at the supply chain or the, you know, suite of services that are required. High frequency is is really important. And that touch point that that high frequency touch point is part of what we’re calling stewardship, right? It’s somebody coming out, coming to know a tree or a stand of trees or an entire landscape and stewarding a a pathway, a direction for that system. Right. Whether it’s, hey, I need to make sure that this group of trees reaches maturity in 60 years so we can harvest them and make poems out of the, or whether I need to make sure that I steward these trees for three centuries under a land easement, so that we can actually provide ecosystem services like water and biodiversity and a variety of things. And I’m going to hand this off in 40 years, when my career is done to the next guy, and we’re going to pass that on and on and on.

Matthew Aghai: Right. So stewardship is the thing that is often overlooked and are very high level armchair conversations about what it’s going to take to conduct. You know, a resource management and reforestation work. So let’s use the timber companies as an example. You know, often they’re vilified, you know, for the clearcutting and other work. And that’s fine. Some of it has been extractive practices that don’t have a long term ecosystem health in mind. But we have to also remember that those are businesses. And, you know, that comes down from the capital incentives or our economy and our pressure on those entities to manage it in that way. Right. But if we look at how they manage landscapes and the way that they’ve defined sustainability, they have put foresters in place that steward their landscapes, their ownerships for years, if not decades, and whether it’s a big industrial forestry company doing this, or an agency like a like a state agency or a federal agency, those foresters are stewards of that landscape that don’t just work with the trees that are the target. They’re working with their neighbors, with the communities, with the biologists, with the civil engineers. They’re working with the local policymakers. They’re going to town hall meetings. They’re going to art conservation district meetings. They’re responding to the lawsuits like it’s a very dynamic role.

Matthew Aghai: And so if we want to increase our availability to respond to practical solutions on the landscape, we need to increase our availability of stewards. So I think that’s a two fold solution. One, just incentivize more stewards to be present on the landscape. So pay people more. Create more value around these landscapes so that we can pay people more. And then the other one is, you know, to remind people both through education, through curriculum and through conversations like this one and others, that there’s an importance to long term stewardship, to marrying an individual, to a landscape. So there can be a relationship that tends to this need of a dynamic situation, right? It’s a very complex thing, managing a tree, a stand, a landscape. So having somebody there and present and responding to the changes, whether it’s weather events or disease events or wildfire or or just simply evolution of growth and biology and, you know, species movement like somebody being there, watching that and responding to it with care and with informed need is going to be really important. And doing it from a laptop and, you know, New York City or Seattle, uh, with a satellite. It’s just not tenable. Regardless if the technology is precise or not, we really need those stewards to be on the ground responding and accountable to outcomes.

 Mindy: Right. Well, you know, more like a hands on learning type of thing, but more of a hands on job versus because I’ve I used to be a teacher, I used to teach ag and unfortunately hands on stuff doesn’t have the, you know, you can’t do anything else. You do hands-on stuff. But I think it’s very important. There’s nothing. I don’t care what technology comes down the pike. There’s not going to be anything that’s going to replace boots on the ground. And a person really touching and seeing and smelling and, you know, whatever sense they need to use to diagnose what’s going on. So, I mean, we do that very much in AG. I totally agree with you that the maintenance and, and there’s just some things that the han presence isn’t technology is not going to replace. I’ve been seeing you know, I had a guest and I can, you know, look at a tree and diagnose it and then you treat it and stuff. And I don’t know if I’m completely in belief of that. I still think you have to be boots on the ground. See it for yourself. You know, that type of thing to get a clear Diagnosis using and using AI in a forestry type of situation for pest management or whatever sort of reminds me, and I’m going to say it like diagnosing yourself using WebMD. I mean, you know.

 Mindy: It’s kind of, you know, there’s a reason why you need to go to the doctor.

Matthew Aghai: So I agree, I agree, and I think like the other issue with it is it’s also easy and it feels like there isn’t a cost associated, even though there are significant costs associated with that technology. And asking the question, you know, and then being wrong. So, you know, I think one of the ways I think this change is moving into the future is we need to be ruthlessly focused on a reality that if we want to see change, we’re going to have to pay for it and paying for the technology to do it ahead of doing the thing that I think is going to work, which is paying for the stewards to do it, might be a catastrophic mistake. You know, One of the problems we have in the entire natural resources management sector is that we pay people very unappealing wages. So the people who do this work are extremely passionate and that drives them. And that means there are fewer of them than we need. But if we were to actually value these resources correctly as a society and realize they’re part of a global, you know, system, to use your Blue Marble example, we’re all in this together, then maybe these people should be seen as the doctors and of our natural world. And if we were to pay them like we pay our doctors, then we might actually see an outcome that is more favorable in the future. So one of my missions is to make sure that the lowly steward, whether it’s a forester or a seed collector, a biologist, whoever it is in my lifetime, I want to see wages that actually match the relevance of their work to the global community, and whether that’s here in North America or abroad. I’m extremely focused on that, and I think that’s going to be a really important conversation to have ahead of throwing tons of capital at just technology, right? Technology is important, and we’re going to get there, and we’re going to put it in the hands of those stewards. But absent that, it’s really vapid. Right. And that’s what I’d like to see.

Mindy : Well we feel that.

 Mindy: Same way about eggs. You know, if you really paid the real cost of your food. So thank you so much, Matthew, for sharing your valuable insights and expertise with us today. It’s been an enlightening discussion, and I’m sure our listeners have gained a lot from it. From those who want to learn more about Matthew Aghai and Mast restoration, be sure to visit his or their website at Mast reforest.com. Don’t forget to subscribe to Forestry and Arboriculture Timber Talks for more episodes featuring experts in the field. Until next time, take care and keep forests thriving.